Kevin Can F*** Himself Creator Valerie Armstrong Reflects On The Series Finale, Frasier, & More [Exclusive Interview]

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.

Now that "Kevin F*** Can Himself" is over, how do you feel about the finished results? Did you get to tell the complete story you were looking to tell?

I really did. I wasn't planning on it only being two seasons, but I got really good fair warning that it was our last season. I knew always how I wanted to end it, sort of the feeling that I wanted to leave off on, the last sort of shot I wanted to have. And so once we found out that the second season 1 was our last, we had what we had already broken. We had what we had left off on in season 1, and I knew now very definitively where I wanted to end it. And so we sort of merged them together and changed some things about the season and the story we were ultimately telling about Allison and Patty and everyone else. But I am so happy with the result. I really am.

How many seasons did you initially plan for the show to be?

I didn't have any sort of set map to it, especially because when you're working with a team and a network and a bunch of other opinions in the room, you have to be willing to adjust and throw out ideas and come up with new ones. We had a few different conceptions of what the second season of this show might look like that we went through, until we ultimately ended up where we are. And so if I had some sort of definitive four-season plan, I don't know what I would've done when they said, "Yeah, we don't like the second season. Please reconsider that."

I think in my head it felt like a three-season story. I wasn't sure what those would be necessarily, but I also am really grateful that I feel like we told a complete story in the amount of time that we had. And I don't feel like we had the chance to overstay our welcome.

I remember watching and saying, "No! She's not going to fake her own death?" So I had a very audible moment while watching once it was going that way. But I love that the arc involves her going back, because Allison actually tells Kevin all of the things that she needs to tell him in the end. You don't get that ever, really.

I knew that scene would be cathartic. It's everything. It was a lot of pressure because it's like, what would you want her to say to him? Starting in the pilot, you're begging for her to stand up for herself and she finally gets to in that scene [in the finale]. It was heavy to write, but what was also really, really important to me in the latter half of that scene, [which] starts in multi-cam and it ends in single-cam, I wanted to make sure in that scene that we proved Allison right. She's been saying this whole time, "Everyone's telling me to just leave, to just leave this guy, to get a divorce. It's not that easy. And he's darker than everyone realizes. He's capable of more than anybody gives him credit for. Think about the way he treated the mail woman. Think about the way he treated me when I got a job. He is worse than he looks. He just hasn't been pushed that far yet."

In that moment, [Kevin] realizes that she's serious, that she left, that she is leaving him, and [is] going to make him look like an idiot and feel like an idiot. That's when he's pushed over the edge into that area where she has said he's been capable of going this entire time. No one believed her! He's not a different guy. He hasn't suddenly changed. He's just been pushed in a way that nobody has dared challenge him his entire life. And so the second half of that scene is like, "Oh yeah, it's not going to be that easy." He says, "I'm going to f***ing destroy you." He means it. And then he's hoisted on his own petard, which is a phrase that I have only heard in writers' rooms and never outside of them.

I think I've only ever heard that phrase in screenwriting class.

We used it a lot in the writers' room of "Masters of Sex." I think that was the first time I heard it.

Regarding how different the set is in multi- and single-camera, I was curious about how things worked logistically. What was the actual set like? I was picturing a Nathan Fielder in "The Rehearsal" type of situation, with the actual location and the set on the soundstage being different, but you did talk about how it was the same set. So what were all the moving parts like for all that stuff?

Wonderfully, I rarely had to worry about that — about what it took to turn the multi-cam set into single and revert it back. I had a vague notion of how many days that took, but I had wonderful construction, line producers, production designers, so I was never tasked with figuring that out. But I do know it took at least a day to transform the set from single to multi or back. To go from multi to single, you bring in the walls because they bow out when you are in multi-cam. You bring them in, you add the fourth wall, you add a ceiling. We have those ready to go, but that takes some time and the lighting is very, very different. The lighting in a multi-cam stage is all from above. Everything is lit, so that in any take you could cut to any character. In single camera, you light for each side, you'd run the scene, you switch lighting, and you'd shoot the other side. It takes much, much longer. 

The days on set were also completely different. We had a bigger crew on multi-cam days. We had laughers come in. Not many, but there were like 10 and they would sit behind a curtain, all masked and bundled up because our stage was so cold. And they would theoretically be paid to laugh at the multi-cam, but that doesn't always mean that they do, so you'll know when a joke isn't working. And there were days where it just felt like a true multi-cam and you forgot what we were actually there to do. There were times where I was like, "Are we just making a regressive show?" And then you get to the single cam and you're like, "Oh no, no, no — it all has a point." 

But shooting that last episode, which I got to direct, was a dream come true. It was wonderful. Maybe the best, most ridiculous day was the day we burned everything down.

Oh, that sounds so liberating.

Oh God, yeah. We brought sets into this giant gravel pit outside and we went one by one and burned them. My crew was incredible. They built a to-scale replica of the facade of the house, three of the walls of the house. It looked exactly like it, just in this gravel pit. And then we burned it. It took a minute and a half. It went up so fast.

While season 1 really focused on deconstructing the sitcom wife, season 2 really focused on Neil's character and really flipped the loyal friend archetype on its head. In fact, it got really dark with his storyline at a few points once he was thrust out of the sitcom. What was it that you were looking to say about friendship with a character like Neil?

That's a great question. I think season 1, like you said, we were taking apart the sitcom wife [with Allison] and the best friend neighbor [with] Patty. In season 2, we knew who they were enough that we just got to tell stories about them that I really loved. We still had a lot to say about the multi-cam and Allison's role in it, but we weren't deconstructing her anymore. We were just on a journey with her. 

For Neil, you're right — this opened up a sort of new side to him. What was very important to us was that we were able to tell stories about Neil without ever letting him off the hook for what he did. Because asking people to forget that he can be violent and can put his hands on a woman, I don't want to ever ask people to forget that or discount it. So to tell a human story about him that wasn't trying to be manipulative or make you feel bad for him, I thought was very, very important to us. We thought about what his awakening would look like, once he's sort out of that multi-cam all the time. How does a guy like Neil deal with that? 

First, he tries to distract himself. He's like, "Kevin, you need an assistant. I'm going to make myself busy. I'm going to be your assistant. I'm going to focus on that. A distraction sounds great," but he can't live in that forever. Then he tries to deny it. He tries to stuff it down and pretend it didn't happen, but he can't do that, either. And so he turns to different outlets to try to deal with it, one being Diane, and he starts to slowly sort of break away from Kevin. It's like he doesn't like being around him, but he can't internalize that yet. He doesn't know why. And so I think for me, it was important that we got him to a place where yes, he realizes by the end that Kevin is an ass and that Kevin has been treating him poorly, maybe their entire relationship. But he's not far enough down the road to be self reflective and say, "I embody some of these things, too."

So my hope for him, the way that I picture him ending ... the one chance he has is when he walks away from Patty, when he says, basically, "I'm not going to make anybody else do this for me. I can't make Patty help me change. I can't make Diane help me change Kevin. I can't stay in that world with him, either." My hope is he walks off into the distance [and] that he's going to figure it out. He's going to become better and realize his own place in that Kevin universe. But who knows if anybody's actually really capable of change?

"Are people are capable of change" was such a great theme that was present throughout the series.

I think we argue that people do, people can. I hope they can. I think Allison does. I love the moment in our finale where Sam says, "People don't really change." And Patty says, "But she did." She gave up everything. That was not something that Allison of the pilot was capable of, because she was too mired in her own personal drama. She was too self-centered. And I think that as her world grew, she grew.

"Kevin Can F*** Himself" has always been about friendship, especially between Allison and Patty. So "let's die alone together" is a really strong note to go out on. What do you hope the audience takes away from the show? And is it safe to assume that these two friends get their happily ever after when the credits roll?

I think no matter what happens in their lives from now on, given everything that they've been through already, that Patty and Allison will always be best friends, soulmates, and by each other's side. I am well aware of the fans who want them to end up together because Patty has definitely had feelings for Allison. But in the writing of it, what became so important to me was that Patty broke her codependent streak and her feelings for Allison really played into that. And Allison let them at first. Allison is about getting rid of her self-loathing, actually being a better person, and that means being a better friend to Patty. And Patty's is to not need Allison so much, to not need anybody's approval so much, to be her own person, divorced from being a sister, a friend, a girlfriend.

There was just no version in our heads — and we talked a lot about it — but there was just no version of them being together that wouldn't have felt manipulative or a regression for Patty or some sort of manipulation maybe from Allison. It was really, really important to me that we end on a note that said, Patty is very happy with her relationship with Allison. She uses this phrase, "Let's die alone together," that Allison used in season 1. And to me, that means she is at peace with what their friendship is and will continue to be. And for Allison, it's her lifeline. And I think for Patty, it is, too.

Valerie, thank you so much for talking to me. I really love this show. Thank you for gifting it to us.

Thank you. That's so kind. I enjoyed every minute of making it.