The Wheel Of Time Showrunner Reveals Favorite Season 1 Moment And Who We Might See In Season 2 [Interview]
"The Wheel of Time" is one of the most anticipated shows of the year, in no small part because fans of Robert Jordan's eponymous book series have dreamed about seeing an on-screen adaptation for years.
Showrunner Rafe Judkins is one of these fans. "Rand and Tam walking with their horse cart down to the Two Rivers, that was one of these iconic things from the book that I've always pictured in my head," Judkins told /Film. "We were on a Slovenian mountain, they were actually with the horses, actually that the cart. We were in the middle of nowhere, and it really felt like they were coming down-mountain for something special."
Judkins, whose previous credits include "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.," "Chuck," and "Hemlock Grove," has been working on the Amazon adaptation of "Wheel of Time" for years. The writer-producer talked with /Film about his experience working on the show, including how he went about bringing some of the most memorable scenes from the book to life.
Warning: This interview has very mild spoilers for the show but includes nothing that viewers of the two trailers or readers of the first Robert Jordan book would find surprising.
This interviewed has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
"You need to feel like you haven't been in this place before."
I wanted to start with a specific question. Usually I don't do that, but one thing I was really impressed with was the dark city of Shadar Logoth — I was really amazed with how it looked. How did you approach creating that place?
Shadar Logoth is actually one of the really interesting things from a production perspective because it really only occupies 15 minutes at the end of one episode that's not even the pilot. So can you really throw production resources at it? Uta Briesewitz, our director of the pilot and the second episode, really pushed for it — this is iconic in the books and you need to feel like you haven't been in this place before. We actually built from scratch an entire back lot just for that sequence, which is a risky spend as a producer, but it was something that I really felt we should do because it continues to expand the world for these kids. I mean, they're just from a small mountain village.
And then in episode 2, the kids are on the road and you need to see them arrive someplace that really is awe-inspiring so that you get a feel for not only the journey that they're on in that moment, but the epic scope of the world that they live in, and the other places that they might be able to go. So I think it was worth putting all of that into it and having our production designer build it. A lot of inspiration was obviously taken from the books, but then what we will usually do for anything on the show is build it up, these are all the quotes from the books of what it is, and then let the concept artists and the designers build out of that into something that is inspired by them, but is obviously also something new.
And is that practical still up, or did they take it down already?
No. Well, I don't know if I'm allowed to speak to what we did with it, but we found a very interesting use for it that ... it still exists even in season 2.
"All of it was built out of the books and then brought to life in this world that was so detailed."
I know you're a fan of the books and came to the show with that fandom in mind. Now that you've done season 1, were there any particular scene or moment that you shot that you were just, as a fan, so excited to see on screen?
There are a number... I guess I can only talk about the first couple of episodes that you saw. But even in that first episode, Rand and Tam walking with their horse cart down to the Two Rivers, that was one of these iconic things from the book that I've always pictured in my head, and then seeing it come to life — we were on a Slovenian mountain, they were actually with the horses, actually that the cart. We were in the middle of nowhere, and it really felt like they were coming down-mountain for something special.
And the first time too that I walked into the Two Rivers, which we also built from scratch, the village square. Just seeing the Winespring Inn and the tree. And I mean, our production design team is so incredible. Every shop, there was a person who lived there, there was an extra that had costumes for being there, and they had something that they did, they made cheese, so they had goats, and they had places to make cheese, and they have herbs that they were growing that you would put in cheese, and all of it was built out of the books and then brought to life in this world that was so detailed. I was really emotionally overwhelmed the first time walking into that set of just seeing it and feeling like we'd built the Two Rivers.
Amazing. And then you had to destroy it.
[Laughs] We burned it down.
Speaking of the Trollocs, there's definitely another scene at the end of the first episode that really sticks out — I think people who aren't fans of the book are still going to be really impressed when Moiraine and Lan have the fight at the end, when she really channels for the first time. That's such an iconic part of the magic system for "Wheel of Time" — when you thought about portraying that on screen, how did you go about getting the hand movements right and having it all come together?
One thing that was important to me in terms of the movements was that I wanted it to feel like, when you looked into these women's eyes you believed that they believed they were moving the forces of nature. So a lot of it was working with Rosamund [Pike] and letting her lead on what she felt like when she was reaching out and touching something. And so that was the thing that was important to me, and she really led the way on it. She built a lot of what the One Power looks like for our show, and it was an awesome collaboration to be able to work with her on that. And I do think when you look in her eyes in that first episode, you believe that she believes she's doing what she's doing.
From a production perspective, like with the Trollocs, I wanted them to be disturbing. I didn't want people to go, "Oh, that's a great VFX." So actually, they're not VFX. They're part prosthetic and part VFX merged together so that you hopefully can never quite get a handle on what you're looking at. It's different in every shot what's real and what's VFX, and hopefully it leaves the audience not quite sure what they're looking at when they're watching it, and just lets them believe it more.
"All of them can stand up to the pressure of being the center of the story."
Was there any specific little moment or point that you wish you could have had in season 1 that you just couldn't for obvious reasons, because there's just too much book for a show?
Yeah, I mean, I love this sequence where Moiraine is getting more and more run down by fighting the Trollocs as they're continuing to flee from the Two Rivers. But for production reasons we can't just max out the entire production by episode 2 and then have no more episodes. So we weren't able to do that, and that's always one thing that missed from the books.
There's a lot of "Wheel of Time" books, and even if the show went for a dozen seasons you can't include everything. Is there any specific storyline or character from "Wheel of Time" that you would love to see have their own spin-off show or anything like that?
I do think that one of the incredible things about "Wheel of Time" is the strength of all the characters. You really want to go off with each of them individually and experience what they're experiencing. And it's a big piece of managing the first season, but also especially now the second season, is managing all these characters and being able to go on these journeys with them. I think it's not really answering your question, but I actually think all of them can stand up to the pressure of being the center of the story. Which is really exciting as a writer, but also really daunting because all of our actors can pull off being the center of their story, so it leaves wanting to spend more time with each of them.
Yeah. I think one thing I appreciated too, is it really is an ensemble cast. And the books obviously are multiple characters, but especially in the earlier books, like I'm thinking of Perrin and Mat, they don't have as much background. You don't find out as much about them until later on.
The first book is less of an ensemble, I would say than the book series as a whole is. When you get to the late books of the series, you are very into each of these characters and they have whole storylines, and you may not even see some of them for a book or two. And so we tried to infuse that into the first season and really give each of those characters their full emotional life so that you feel when you watch the first season the same as you would reading book six.
"Our Two Rivers is this shoot we did in Slovenia."
Speaking of later books, I know you're in season 2 right now. Obviously I know you can't share details, but is there anything generally you can say that you think existing fans can look forward to, or just anything you can say about what we can expect or look forward to?
There's two characters that are in the first book that everyone loves that will not be in the first season of the show, and they both have big and heavy appearances in season 2. And they both start with the letters, "E. L."
Very cool! And you're doing a lot of location shooting and it definitely shows on screen, but I wonder if you had any specific spot or place where you shot that really sticks out in your mind as being something that was really memorable or special?
The shoot that we did in Slovenia will always be really memorable to everyone on the show because it's where we started — our Two Rivers is this shoot we did in Slovenia. We were in the mountains, and we were with shepherds and goats, and eating cheese, and swimming in the rivers together, and it was how the show started was kind of how their stories started. I actually was staying in this area of Slovenia when I wrote the pilot originally, years and years ago. So for me it has a special emotional importance too, of that's where I first envisioned the Two Rivers, and then to be there and shooting with these actors, I think we all have kind of a special soft place in our heart for the Soča Valley.
"The Wheel of Time" premieres on Amazon Prime Video on November 19, 2021.