Honor Among Thieves Directors On Capturing The Chaos Of A Good Dungeons & Dragons Session [Exclusive Interview]
This year's SXSW Film Festival opened with the star-studded world premiere of "Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves" at the historic Paramount Theater. Chris Pine, Michelle Rodriguez, Justice Smith, Sophia Lillis, Daisy Head, Rege-Jean Page, and writer/directors Jonathan Goldstein and John Francis Daley were in attendance and got to bask in the glow of the explosive audience reaction.
SXSW audiences are notoriously excitable, and when that 2000+ strong crowd sees a comedy they like, the very walls shake with their laughter and applause, as evidenced by this glowing review from /Film's Jacob Hall. "Dungeons & Dragons" played very well, and that's a testament to the approach Goldstein and Daley took in crafting a movie that can work for an audience that has never rolled a D20 in their lives while also throwing in some big Easter eggs for the hardcore fans.
I sat down with the writer/directors the morning after their big premiere and the first thing on my mind to ask them had to do with the chaotic energy of a D&D campaign and how they somehow translated that into their movie.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'You're allowed to have fun'
As someone with very limited experience with D&D, the biggest compliment I can give you guys is that the movie you made feels like it captures the hilarious chaos of a good D&D session. The worst thing a D&D movie could be is super duper serious, right? In your experience, is that something you went into this knowing you wanted to capture, that comedic chaos feeling?
Daley: Absolutely. We wouldn't have done the film if they wanted it to be a cookie cutter, super serious, grim fantasy version that we've seen plenty of times before. It was the tone that had been originated from the inception of D&D that is so unique and is what hooked us into the prospect of doing this film. It's one of a kind, and you're allowed to have fun. That, to me, is what makes for a fun film.
I'd love to get into the inception of the idea of this movie, because you have the structure of movies, which isn't exactly a one-to-one to how a good campaign is structured, but you know you wanted to capture that feeling. Was that your primary challenge when developing this movie?
Goldstein: Well, like you say, the demands of a film that you want to be around two hours have certain structural requirements. It's very different from a month- or year-long game you do once a week, so it had to have a narrative drive that would propel you through, and that required certain story beats and certain things to happen so that it didn't just feel episodic — you felt like you were really on a quest.
We started with the idea of a heist film, a kind of "Ocean's Eleven" thing, where you bring together a disparate group of people and a mission to accomplish. That felt very D&D-ish, but it also felt like a genre of movie that we knew how to get our heads around. And then we just built the characters around that.
Daley: But I think there is something uniquely chaotic about the narrative of a campaign that we alluded to in this film where the plans that you think, as an audience, our characters are carrying out, when they go wrong and they have to pivot many times over, that's not necessarily what you would expect from a normal story structure. Some could think that it makes it feel like it's all over the place, but to us, that sense of chaos and mayhem is exactly what makes it so fun, because you have no idea what to expect.
'You don't have to be like the other person to like the other person'
You know what movie's great about that? And I don't want to inflate your ego by trying to compare your movie to it, but "Raiders of the Lost Ark" is very much that. Indiana Jones is after the Ark. Simple, right? And everything goes wrong. He gets it. He loses it. Everything goes wrong. That happens multiple times. He even has the line where he's like, "I don't know. I'm making it up as I go."
Goldstein: Yep. That's a hundred percent the kind of influence that's in our DNA when we make movies. That idea that yes, you're in a high adventure fantasy film, but the characters are imperfect. Except for maybe the Xenk character that Rege[-Jean Page] plays, they're very imperfect. And that's also baked into D&D, because your character is an avatar for yourself. You roll and some things you're good at, some things you're bad at. So we really wanted that to be the case, just like Indiana Jones.
That leads me to the incredibly important task you had in front of you in casting your leads. It's one thing to write these characters and have them fit into these D&D classes, essentially. It's another thing to bring those to reality. Not anybody can have the charisma that Chris Pine has to pull off that character. Nobody can have the lovable brute strength that Michelle Rodriguez has. How difficult was that process? Was that something where you just knew instantly? Or did you have to match them, personality-wise, together? How did that come together?
Daley: I think for the most part, the actors that we cast inhabited the roles that we always imagined for the ensemble. That said, we were surgical about implementing some changes that we thought would help to bolster what makes each of these actors unique and different. I mean, you're never going to find two people more different than Michelle Rodriguez and Chris Pine, just in their personalities, in their way that they kind of approach things, but they are also good friends and got along great on set. I think that is a testament to the notion that you don't have to be like the other person to like the other person.
That also feeds into the feeling of playing a campaign. I listen to a podcast called "The Adventure Zone," which is a podcast where it's just really funny people that play D&D and they go out of their way to make sure their characters have drama with each other, but those characters turn into a family. I mean, you mentioned on stage last night that there's a billion offshoots and versions of D&D, so I'm sure there's a dark, mopey version you could do...
Daley: Certainly.
Goldstein: The next movie's going to be really dark. [laughs]
The next one's going to be "The Empire Strikes Back" of the D&D universe?
Daley: That's right.
Goldstein: It's going to be sad. [laughs]
'It was never our imperative to make a commercial for Dungeon and Dragons'
One thing I'd like to highlight is that the SXSW screening last night had folks of all types in the audience. There were people who had never even heard of D&D and people who were constantly pointing at the screen when some deep cut Easter egg popped up. Walking that tightrope between pleasing the hardcore D&D fans and not alienating a new audience must have been very tricky for you two.
Goldstein: It was. And the fact that you don't really know the game but you seem to have enjoyed the movie is crucial. The movie is too expensive, frankly, to just appeal to fans. It has to cross the line and convert other people. I don't really care if they then go and play the game. That's their own decision. But I just want it to be something that you can enjoy and access without knowing the lore at all.
I think you're going to get a lot of people seeing the movie and then exploring D&D. "Stranger Things" is probably inspiring that, too. But it's interesting how TV and film as a medium can really influence that kind of exploration. Just judging by the buzz last night, I have a feeling you're going to be sending a couple of people to the D20 store.
Daley: Your mouth to God's ears. Look, it was never our imperative to make a commercial for Dungeon and Dragons. We frankly couldn't care less what the uptick is of people starting to play, but I will say as a lover of the game, there is something so special about it that brings people together in a way that no other game has or can. And this was definitely an attempt to capture the spirit of it, regardless of if you know that it is or not.
Did you learn any lessons of what not to do from the previous film?
Daley: [laughs] No. I saw it when it came out 20-some years ago and promptly forgot about it.
I remember blue lipstick. Somebody had blue lipstick on.
Daley: Yep, bald guy.
And kept talking about how powerful the rod felt in his hand. That's what I remember.
Goldstein: The rod. Jesus. I had never seen it, actually. I made a decision that I didn't even want it in my brain.
That's a good call.
Daley: I just remembered they put a Beholder in it that was acting as a guard dog. But no, there was nothing for us to be gleaned from that film. And by the way, no disrespect to that film. Making films is difficult in any scenario. All the best to the person who created that.
It should also be noted that we're kind of living in the geek age now, right? You couldn't make this back then. Back then, they were trying to make more of what the audiences were expecting from a fantasy film. This is pre-MCU, pre-geek revolution.
Daley: Right, right, right.
Goldstein: I think you could argue "Star Wars" was pretty geeky.
"Star Wars" was kind of unique, though. Even "Star Trek" was niche. "Star Wars" was the thing that united everybody.
Goldstein: That's right. Well, we hope we can do that.
You could! You've made the "Star Wars" of D&D.
Goldstein: Print that. [laughs]
'Before he even gets the rules out, it's f***ed up'
One thing that was mentioned at the Q&A after the screening that I have to know more about is that the cast embarked on their own D&D campaign before making the movie. Was that your guys' idea?
Daley: Yeah. We had very limited time with our cast as a group...
Goldstein: Thanks to quarantine.
Daley: Thanks to quarantine in the UK where everyone had to quarantine for 10 days, and it was very strict at that point because it was in the height of the pandemic. So we had limited time to rehearse, and we wanted to take one of those days we had with our cast to do a campaign, not just to familiarize them with the mechanics of it, but also because it felt like a really great exercise in expediting the chemistry between all of them.
This is the nerd equivalent of people doing war movies and sending their cast to boot camp.
Daley: Exactly. That's right.
Were you part of this campaign?
Goldstein: Yeah, we played as a two-headed Aarakocra, the bird guy, but really we wanted to let them have the most time.
What's it like to watch all that unfold? You know the game, you've played in the game, and then watching a group that is as charismatic and funny as that group discovering how addicting this game can be. Even Pine on stage last night said, "This is an actor's game." Which it absolutely is.
Goldstein: Yeah, it is. They got right into it, and they played as their own characters. We started to see the potential and actually incorporated some of the qualities they brought to that game into the movie. One of the things that really shifted, we had some of it in the script, but once we started working with Pine on it was this can-do spirit that you see a lot of in the movie. "This is what we do. We pivot." That all kind of came from what he brought to the table. It was a subplot.
Daley: There's nothing more endearing than that spirit. Especially in the face of what's going on in the world right now, to have a character that exudes relentless optimism in the face of the greatest adversity is really inspirational and something that makes us feel good as filmmakers. For him to portray that in a way that he did with such charisma and dedication was, I mean, it was a blessing.
Was there anything that you guys, as fans, were like, "Okay, this is our shot at making a D&D movie. We're doing this"?
Daley: Yeah. For me, the obvious answer would've been the certain unique creatures like the Mimic or the Displacer Beast, but more so than that, I think the problem-solving component, where they're all standing around pitching ideas and trying to figure out how to overcome this obstacle. That, to me, is very much D&D and not something you necessarily see in many films where you kind of see how the sausage is made.
"You can't fix everything with magic!"
Daley: Exactly!
Goldstein: A hundred percent. I love, and it leads to what John just said, the bridge sequence, because that is both classic D&D, classic Raider situation. "Here's the rules: You need to be very careful. If you don't follow these rules..." Before he even gets the rules out, it's f***ed up. There's no going back. And I love that, playing with the audience's expectations in the moment.
'Sometimes we can figure out a way to have the humorous dialogue help to propel the story'
Another thing you guys did very well was bake in arcs for all the characters. I know that's basic filmmaking 101, but when you have a group as big as the group that you're dealing with, it's pretty impressive that each one gets to fulfill their own journey within the grander story.
Daley: Especially when you're dealing with an ensemble, you have to create a somewhat simple arc for each of them to fulfill, because if it's too complicated, the movie's too long, and it's not as fun. It's really finding that balance.
Goldstein: All I say is we always try to combine action and character, story and character, in the same scene, so that it's not just moving along the plot, but you're also shining a light on characters in those things. When it works, I think it's the most effective kind of storytelling.
Daley: And to have the jokes not be just jokes for jokes' sake.
Goldstein: Sometimes they are.
Daley: Sometimes they are, but sometimes we can figure out a way to have the humorous dialogue help to propel the story. That is the trickiest part, but also the magic trick. Because if you can find the humor in the story, and the characters, and how they react to the story, that's where you're really on rails.
Goldstein: Like when Chris says, "We can never stop failing, because once we do, we've failed." That's a serious, meaningful thing. And then you get a laugh with Doric's reaction, "Huh?"
I'm thinking specifically of little things that help build the character in terms of Michelle Rodriguez's character's attraction to small men. That endears her to the audience in a weird way. And you have a great cherry that you put on top of that.
Daley: [laughs] Thank you.
Goldstein: And Marlin's affection for large, barbarian women.
"Dungeons & Dragons: Honor Among Thieves" hits theaters on March 31, 2023.