Actor Donavon Stinson On The Evolution, Difficulties, And Joys Of Motion Capture [Exclusive Interview]

Any digital artist well-versed in motion capture technology knows that a successful session relies on the performance of the actor. Donavon Stinson has been a witness and participant in the journey of motion capture since its explosion in popularity starting at the turn of the millennium, acting in an extensive list of film and video game productions that includes "District 9," "The Lord of the Rings" video games, and the "Mass Effect" series. The actor's live-action credits include Lifetime series "UnREAL," Shudder's zombie comedy "Dead Shack," and Nickelodeon's revival of "Are You Afraid of the Dark?", among others.

I got the opportunity to talk with Stinson about his career, covering how much work goes into mo-cap performances, how filmmakers and creative directors work with actors on motion capture sets, and how the technology is ever-evolving. The discussion made it clear that acting for motion capture is a lot more than just tennis balls and spandex suits.

Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.

Motion capture technology is a thing that I imagine is constantly evolving at a pretty fast rate. Have you noticed a shift in the way filmmakers have approached it over the years?

Yeah. It's always, always evolving. I think that in the last ten years, the Vicon systems, a lot of the camera systems that a lot of the studios work, the head rigs, the HMCs that actors are using now. I remember "The Lord of the Rings," we did the "Two Towers" game and "Return of the King" around the time that the movie was coming out, which was really cool because we saw the mouth of Sauron before anyone else. We were like, "Oh my God, look at that." So again, Kimani and a couple other actors, we'd play a lot of different characters. Like I did Gollum and Legolas and Gandalf, and Kimani would do Aragorn and a little bit different humanized characters and trolls, orcs — a lot of orcs.

We went on to a different one called "The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age." That was the very first time that we had ever used facial capture. That was at EA. Back then, they used to put markers. Now they just do dots, they just use a makeup so it's just black dots all over your face. Back then, dude, they used to glue little tiny markers, and I mean everywhere, because back then, it wasn't evolved the way it is today, the cameras and such. So you needed a lot of markers. It would be all around your eyebrows, and they'd stick out. They were on your eyelashes and your lips and your nose. If you just even slightly wiped your face, the markers would go flying off and then you'd have to stop and they'd have to glue them back on. 

So going from those kind of markers specifically for facial capture to where it is now — we just worked on a project that I can't talk about. They can do my markers on my face in five minutes and then you do your face rom and then you're done and you're ready to go, obviously with your suit and everything on. So it's changed a lot. It's easier for us actors, I think it's a lot less intrusive, if you will.

The marker technology's changed. When we started out again doing "Heavy Gear" and all those cartoons and stuff and even at EA, the markers were like ping pong balls. "SNL" is always making fun of motion capture or what it shows and it's a guy in a green suit with ping pong balls. But they were quite big like that. And they were hard as rocks, and we were doing crazy stunts back then. We were doing fight scenes, sometimes eight hours a day choreographing a fight scene, working stuff out, doing stunts, launching off stuff, landing on it. I looked like I had polka dots all over me sometimes, I just had cupping from head to toe. And then eventually the tech changed, the markers changed, the suits changed.

We used to wear rugby helmets back then for our head rigs and stuff, or just for the head markers — so they're super sweaty and hot, very uncomfortable, especially if you're doing stunt-heavy days. And now, if we're doing non-performance capture stuff, it's just a pair of glasses. Back then, they were pushing the tech. Having three or four people in the space, in the volume, was uncalled for and it would sometimes crash. And now, I work for Beyond Studios, which is a local motion capture studio here, and [they] can get up to 10 dudes now — a lot of them can. I think most can get up to 10. EA can do the same thing and Ubisoft and so on.

So it has changed a lot. The cameras, obviously, you can't wear anything reflective in the volume like your Nikes or whatever. But I remember the first time we saw real-time, I think it was "The Lord of the Rings" where they had a camera in the space and then we were looking at ourselves on the actual monitors. And back then, it wasn't so much detailed. Now we did a game that just was released that had finished gameplay, and then your model is placed right in there. It's so fast now. It's so streamlined, it's so easy to say, "Okay, this guy's a troll. He's a giant, massive troll. Boom, put the model onto the skeleton, you're good to go. He's right there."

So that stuff is amazing, especially for actors to be able to see who you're playing. Because a lot of the times when you would come in, you'd have your character bio that you would see usually drawn in pre-production or whatever and you'd have the description of what the character is and then pictures of what he is, and then that's it. But now with real-time being able to see the model on your skeleton, so then I can talk to the director and say like, "Okay. He's got a big belly, he's kind of big and then he's got a belt on him or whatever. So I can't really lean over and do this. I can't hunch over." So you can see where your limitations are as far as an actor and what you can do. It's changed dramatically.

Every actor wants to do motion capture now. It's now considered to be another acting form, whereas before it was kind of like, I was like Gollum. "My precious." Nobody knows that I'm doing this, and I can take all the jobs.

Do you think there's going to be less need for traditional live-action filmmaking?

No, acting is never going to go anywhere. Traditional filmmaking's never going to go anywhere. But I just think it's another tool that filmmakers can use. Video games, they're never going to go anywhere and they make more money than movies do these days. So motion capture's always going to have a place. I just think that it's only beneficial for filmmakers to use it sparingly on certain things. Remember "Final Fantasy" when that was all motion capture when that came out? And there's been other feature films. The "Final Fantasy" movie, it didn't do well. That was all motion capture. And "Polar Express," "Beowulf," and "Monster House," all those Zemeckis movies. That was when the tech was quite young still, it was still in its infancy. So there were still a lot of learning curves. As much as they probably were successful in the box office or whatever, it was still quite young. I think filmmakers probably didn't really know how to use it as much. 

But now, I don't know if "The Mandalorian" has used any, but I'm sure that it probably has. I haven't seen any making-ofs, but that tech, that facial capture, that's what they're kind of doing with the deepfake tech that they used for Luke in "Mando." And "Indiana Jones," the new one coming up, I'm pretty sure that they're using facial capture in that to de-age, too. I've seen photos of Harrison Ford with the markers on him. If it's beneficial for the story and it's beneficial for the movie and they're not just using it because it's there and it's gratuitous it, I think it can only be helpful,

But I don't think it's going anywhere. I think it's just going to get better. I remember Damien Gordon, who used to be the head of the motion capture facility at Mainframe. He went on to do "The Matrix" sequels and he's still in the industry. I remember speaking to him one day about water, and would it be possible. He was already thinking about that. That was back in the early 2000s. But water's reflective, it's almost impossible to do it. But James Cameron being the scientist that he is, he figured it out [for "Avatar: The Way of Water"]. And now you're seeing it on the Marvel movies. Robert Downey Jr.'s standing there, he's in the suit. It's not necessarily the same type of tech, the Vicon system where it's reflective markers. I just think it's going to be another tool for filmmakers and actors to use. There's so much more IP out there for people that can tap into motion capture for their movies.

I was wondering about the people who are directing you and guiding you and supervising you on these sets. Is it the main directors doing most of the work, or is there a second unit crew? And I was also wondering about that in terms of video game sets. Is there a director for the video game cut scene and acting side of things?

What usually happens with the cartoons that I did, the "Barbie" movies, "Heavy Gear," and then "Action Man," all that, they have an episode director. That episode director usually is a key frame animator, or just an animator in general. And they work alongside, back then his name was Luke Carroll and he did all of the directing. He was the guy that dealt with the actors. He was the guy that was there, we'd have animatics — old VHS, this is how old-school it was — where we'd watch the animatic of the storyboard and they'd have all the voiceover artists talk, talk, talk. And then we'd have to lip sync act to what's happening, and then do all of that stuff there. Luke would direct us on the floor doing the blocking, doing all that stuff, all what a director would do.

When I started doing a lot more at EA and some with Ubisoft and Capcom and stuff, sometimes they would outsource and bring in another director. But a lot of the times it was just the game team. So the game team would be guys that work on their computers, and they're the ones that are like 24/7, they're thinking about the game. So they would sometimes come down and direct us from upstairs. Sometimes there's a bit of a miscommunication because a lot of these game animators, they're not professional directors. They're great at their jobs, at what they do. But then having to convey that information to an actor, to a human being, can be quite difficult.

I remember we did "Stuart Little," a cartoon, this is a long time ago. And I was [performing as] the dad and there was a camping scene. I remember Johnny Daryl, he was there directing, and he's a great director, good friend. But there was the other guy, I'm not sure what his name was, and he was the lead animator, I think, on the series. In the scene, the dad gets stung by a bee and he kind of jumps into the air — comedy kind of stuff. So I did the move and he was like, "Yeah, that's really good, man. That's fantastic, dude, great job. But is there any way that when he gets stung and he jumps in the air, he gets stung again, so he goes a little higher?" And I was like, "So you're asking me to defy gravity?" And he's like, "Yeah, only if you think you can pull it off." And it's like, "Well, no, man." That's the idea of a guy who just can key frame animate, not knowing that we do have limitations.

I read they put you guys on stilts for "District 9." Is that true?

No, no, no. So Jason [Koepp], the gentleman you mentioned in your article, so he was on location, right? So when they shot in South Africa, he was actually there, live-action. So when they were filming it all on location, he was actually there and did the performance of that prawn there. For us, when we came here and we were working with Animatrik, we were just in a studio, when we were standing in line for food and then jumping on a refrigerator and just filling out the city.

It was funny, we didn't even know what we were working on when we shot that. We had no idea. And that was a time when there was a lot of motion capture happening, so we were just taking the jobs and just working. So a lot of the times, like I said, I'd go in and be like, "I don't know what I'm doing." We had no idea that it was going to be "District 9." They were just like, "You're these aliens." We [took] a little class where we were kind of twitching, almost like an insectoid bird, kind of moving their heads, and just finding the way to walk as these things. Obviously we saw the models and then we just did it. We had no idea what we were doing. But there were no stilts.

I remember even when that movie came out, even the marketing for that was like, "What the hell is this thing?"

I think I was sitting in the movie theater and the trailer came up and I was like, "I think I f***ing worked on that." I had no idea. I swear ... "District 9" was cool, man. I'm glad that it ended up being what it was and not just something that was some weird Doritos commercial or something.

I know that show was produced by and created by James Cameron, and Neil Blomkamp was an animator on it. I was wondering if there was a connection between all of this high-tech motion capture stuff and you working on a James Cameron project, and then later a Neil Blomkamp project.

I wish there was. But no, it's just dumb luck, honestly. I'm just incredibly fortunate to be able to do what I do, and I just think "right place, right time" a lot of the time.

You've also worked on films that have used extensive visual effects. Like I saw that you were in "Warcraft," but it wasn't necessarily you in a motion capture role.

Actually, the reason I got the role on that was I auditioned for motion capture. I went in and read to do a lot of the orc movement and stuff. And I'm not that big, you know what I mean? I'm not a big guy unless I've had a few beers over the summer. I didn't get it, but the director loved me. I was asked if I just wanted to come and just do this one role. And I do a lot of comedy, too, so it was supposed to be this kind of funny role. Who's going to say no, right? I think the coolest thing was just going into the prop room, going into this giant warehouse where I was like, "Oh my God, they're actually going to do the big boots and the big gloves and the big swords and all that kind of stuff." So I was happy to do it. That was an interesting one because it was such a massive budget on that movie. Sometimes you go onto sets and they just feel different because they just feel like money.

That was an interesting one. All the cast were super nice. I was only there for a day, but he was such a dope guy. He was really nice. Really funny dude. But yeah, I don't even remember what I did in that movie, to be honest. I just know I was a knight in a jail cell because I did several different things. But I think I got turned into a goat or something.