Director James Wan Doesn't Even Know How To Make A 'Realistic' Aquaman Movie [Exclusive Interview]
The common thread that unites all James Wan movies is sincerity. The director of modern horror classics like "Saw," "Insidious," and "The Conjuring," blockbuster behemoths like "Furious 7" and "Aquaman," and beloved cult items like "Dead Silence" and "Malignant" doesn't allow a single shred of snark or cynicism into his movies. Even his horror movies wear their hearts on their sleeves, which means this is doubly true for his bigger movies aimed at a massive worldwide audience. The first "Aquaman" made over a billion bucks by staying true to its goofball nature. In troubled times, it's clear audiences are buying Wan's particular brand of earnestness.
Wan's latest film, "Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom," opens in theaters this week, and I had the opportunity to sit down with the filmmaker over Zoom to chat all about it. We talked about drumming octopuses and how the world of "Aquaman" carries the same appeal as Pandora from "Avatar" and Middle-earth from "The Lord of the Rings." We talked about his ongoing bromance with actor Patrick Wilson, who returns in "The Lost Kingdom" and marks his sixth collaboration with Wan. And naturally, we talked about building cinematic universes in an age where the very concept seems to have cracks in its foundation.
And yes, of course I asked about "Malignant 2."
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'I'm talking to an octopus who is on a secret mission with me? Okay, that's cool'
Did the success of the first "Aquaman" open new doors for the sequel? What elements were you allowed to lean into now that people knew that you could make a billion dollar superhero movie?
I think, from a creative standpoint, having done it in the first film, is really the idea that we can lean into the more absurd aspect of the "Aquaman" world. All the strange and quirky characters and the world itself. I feel like I don't have to explain myself as much as I needed to on the first film. [laughs] Having seen the first one, I think everyone collectively kind of goes, "Oh yeah, yeah, we know what we're doing now. Okay, cool. Let's do that. Oh, I'm talking to a human shark? Yeah, I get it. Okay, that's fine. I'm talking to an octopus who is on a secret mission with me? Okay, that's cool."
That octopus is really popular. Within two days within coming out, everybody I know was talking about the drumming octopus. And now you have permission to beef him up into a supporting character. That's got to be validating that you can do that.
Yeah, no, again, I am a big fan of Topo. I am a big fan of Topo from the Silver Age comic book. And I wanted to have him have a stronger presence in the first movie, but we just couldn't kind of work it out. We couldn't cram him into the story. And so ultimately, we just sort of had him do a cameo on the first film. And it was great. We were validated that when the movie came out, people spoke highly of Topo, the drumming octopus. And now we know that we can actually use him judiciously as a character in this one. I love the relationship in the comic book, which Jason gets to play up even more in the movie with Topo. He is a bit of a sidekick, but he's a really fun character for the two of them.
"Aquaman" arrived at time when I think people were still pretty obsessed with superhero movies as being, for lack of a better term, realistic. Can you talk about why people are so ready for the more fantastical, goofy, silly Aquaman stories? Because people clearly embraced it.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I got to be honest: I did not know how to do a realistic "Aquaman" movie. Do you know what I mean? With all of these things, I just could not wrap my head around that version. I mean, I am not quite sure if I would want to make "The Dark Knight" version of "Aquaman." It's different if your character has been around for a while and you're trying to find different ways to reinvent the character. But it's the first time out of the gate, at least cinematically on the big screen. We've never seen the Aquaman story, the Aquaman world, portrayed to that level.
And I just knew that I wanted, and I had to, embrace the quirkiest side of this world. I feel like it allows me as a filmmaker to do a lot more, to have fun with it. The ocean is a kind of dark and scary place, and I wanted to show sides of that, but I also want to show that in the world of Atlantis, it can be magical as well, and it can be fun, it can be uplifting, it can be a world that makes you kind of go, "I would love to have the ability to breathe underwater so that I can visit a place like Atlantis." That was really my main mission statement on the first film.
'Filmmaking can be very stressful, so it's kind of nice to surround yourself with people that you enjoy working with'
Do you think that's the appeal of movies like "Aquaman," like "Avatar," like "The Lord of the Rings?" People love the characters and the story, but there's a sense of place — a place that isn't real, but you wish it was real?
Right. Yes. And the crazy thing is all those fantasy movies takes place in a fantasy world, but ours takes place actually on Earth. It's on Earth, it's in the ocean. But that aspect of it allows me to really lean further [into] fantasy, and just embrace and make it feel like we're on a whole different planet, when in reality, technically our story takes place on Earth.
How much of your filmmaking career at this point is just an excuse to cast Patrick Wilson in everything? I'm obsessed with the fact that he's in so many of your movies.
[laughs] Yeah, it is a bit of a running joke now between him and I. People ask me, "Why do you work with Patrick as often as you do?" and it's pretty simple: Patrick is a talented actor. He's great. He's really easy to work with. He is no fuss. And at the end of the day, he is a big film buff. He's such a film fan, which — some people were a little bit surprised when he wanted to direct. He went on to direct the next "Insidious" film, but not for me.
Me, I was like, "Oh, yeah." I've spent many years hanging out with Patrick on set, and we would just sort of geek out and talk about all the movies that we grew up loving. So I'm not surprised at all that Patrick has aspirations to do more stuff behind the camera. So I enjoy working with the guy. He gets me, I get him, and we kind of have a very shorthand way of working. We trust each other and it makes it fun. Filmmaking can be very stressful, so it's kind of nice to surround yourself with people that you enjoy working with.
The comparison I always make is "When Gregory Peck shows up in 'The Omen,' you buy everything unrealistic because that's Gregory Peck saying it." I think Patrick Wilson has a very similar vibe where he brings an authority to fantastical stories.
I mean, again, it is a testament to what a good actor he is. He can take the most ridiculous lines that I would throw at him in these movies and he'll read it like it's fricking Shakespeare. And that's great. He doesn't thumb his nose. He gets what these films are. He understands all the different movies that we make together, and it just makes it easy for me.
'If people love your characters, they want to continue to go on other journeys with them'
As the DC Universe pivots toward whatever its future is right now, you're still heavily involved in my favorite cinematic universe, The Conjuring. What advice do you have for anybody at this point who's trying to create, not just a DC Universe, but any movie universe?
Yeah, obviously it's not an easy thing to create and put out so many movies within that one world and to still try and keep them fresh. I think that is the key. You want to try and find stories that you're not necessarily rehashing and that you can kind of find an interesting new way to play with characters that you've already played with, that you've introduced the audience and the world to. If people love your characters, they want to continue to go on other journeys with them, right? So then it becomes about finding the right story for what that future journey is. And that's really the key, I think, at least for me. That's why, for me as a director, I would direct the first movie. And then I would direct the second movie. And if I feel like I've told everything I wanted to tell as a director, then I am willing to pass it on to someone else and let someone else take the baton and run with it if I feel like I have nothing else to say.
So, the most important question of the day, and I'm being dead serious: What do I need to do to make sure you make "Malignant 2?" I need more Gabriel. What needs to happen to move the needle?
It's funny how many "Malignant 2" questions I get asked. [laughs] I love that. "Malignant" came at a time when I just felt like I needed to visit my roots again. I felt like between the "Insidious" films and The Conjuring films, I felt like people were starting to get comfortable with me. And "Aquaman" and all that. I felt like people were getting comfortable with me, and I started to think that people were starting to know what kind movie I would be putting out as a director. So I really wanted to make a movie that was outside of the box.
It's only a matter of time before I feel like, "You know what? I need to go outside of the box again." I like to do that. I like to do that. I like to kind of go back and forth between my big films and my small films. Now, in terms of "Malignant 2," I don't know. I actually don't have an answer for you there. [laughs]
"Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom" opens on December 22, 2023.