Expendables 4 Director Talks John Wick Comparisons And Jason Statham's Fighting Style [Exclusive Interview]
For a movie with a tagline that literally (and hilariously) states, "They'll die when they're dead," perhaps it's only fitting that "Expendables 4" feels like a last gasp for star-driven action blockbusters. In a noticeable shift in historic trends, audiences seem to have increasingly flocked to theaters less out of a desire to see specific movie stars, and more to catch the latest event-sized movie based on a recognizable brand. Tom Cruise may be on the frontlines fighting back against this rising tide with everything that he's got, but surely there's enough evidence to suggest that IP is what's selling tickets these days, not actors. Even A-listers like Chris Evans have begun to accept this, as he recently told GQ, "That was the beauty of working on Marvel films. You never really had to be front and center. The character is the star."
Just don't try telling any of this to the "Expendables" franchise. Still trucking along well over a decade since the first movie arrived on the scene, the nostalgic throwback to '70s and '80s B-movies has safely ignored consistently middling critical reviews on the strength of uniting some of the biggest action stars on the planet ... until the poorly-received third film, which blasphemously eschewed the traditional R-rating for safer and less gory violence, seemed to put the entire venture on the shelf. After years of languishing in development limbo, director and former stuntman Scott Waugh ("Act of Valor," "Need for Speed") has stepped in to take a bloody stab at reinvigorating the series with "Expendables 4," even as star Sylvester Stallone takes more of a backseat, allowing Jason Statham's Christmas Lee to step up.
In a recent interview conducted over Zoom, I had the chance to talk to Waugh about movie stars, comparisons to "Mission: Impossible" and "John Wick," and even a surprising Spider-Man connection that fans may not know about.
Note: This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity.
'The pioneer of the action genre'
To start with sort of a broad question, I've noticed a lot of chatter online about how the very concept of movie stars selling tickets and driving people to the movies doesn't seem to exist anymore — at least not to the same extent it used to. Obviously, you still have Tom Cruise, Denzel Washington, and Margot Robbie still out there doing their thing. But I wanted to ask you, as someone who's had experience with working with Jackie Chan, John Cena, and now the entire cast of "Expendables," I wanted to know what your thoughts on that were.
Well, I think there's still a lot of actors that would love to do it, but in today's climate, we're in a strike and that eliminates all of that. So, unfortunately, the audiences are the ones suffering and not getting to see their stars out in front of the camera. So I still think it's a necessity, and hope to see more of them do it in the future.
Now that you're coming into this franchise, three movies in, you're hitting the ground running and jumping on board this moving train for the first time. What was that experience like for you?
Being a part of a franchise like this is a treat. As a filmmaker, when you've been in the action arena like myself for my whole career since I was 12, it's exciting to be a part of these action heroes. And to work with, obviously, Sylvester Stallone, the pioneer of the action genre, him and Arnold. So it was a thrill when I got the call that they wanted me to come over and direct.
What was your pitch when joining this franchise? Was it maybe a mix of that and your background as a stuntman that helped bring you aboard? What do you think?
I was super humbled when they came to me and asked me if I wanted to direct. So I was like, "Wow. All right. I would love that." They're like, "Hey. Would you want to do 'Expendables 4'?" I was like, "Hell, yes." [laughs] So I think my background definitely lends to the franchise. And Sly's been wanting to work with me for ... ever since "Act of Valor," we've been trying to find something together to work with. So I think it was a natural fit, when that slot opened up.
'Jason's a really incredible actor to watch fight'
Since you alluded to your background as a stuntman for all those years, it feels like the pipeline from stuntmen becoming directors was sort of made famous by David Leitch and Chad Stahelski with the first "John Wick" movie, and they've both talked about how their stunt experience helped them with crafting the action on that movie and the movies that they've directed since then. Did you find that to be a similar experience with you, with all the movies that you've done, but especially "Expendables 4?"
Yeah. I think back in the "Act of Valor" days, in frickin' 2012, was really my come-out as a director, as an action director. And just trying to put the audience in the boots of the stuff that I've seen in my current career, so they can see action from my lens, is exciting to me. And I feel like David and Chad, now coming out and doing their stuff the way they are, is really fantastic and really just getting more action filmmakers for the audience to really have the style of action elevated. And I feel like stuntmen are very fortunate enough to have seen it differently, so I'm glad that there's more opportunities happening.
With "Expendables 4," did any of the main cast surprise you with their willingness to do their own stunts? Was there anybody whose natural talent for it kind of blew you away on set?
I think that it's incredible how talented these guys really are. You don't know if they're really getting a lot of stunt doubles coming in, making them look better than they are. But then, when I got on set, to see that Sly and Jason are still doing it, man [laughs], it's wild to watch. And Jason's a really incredible actor to watch fight. His style is really — as an action guy, I can say it this way: His style's beautiful. It's pretty to watch because he's so precise and his form is really powerful. So it's great designing fights for him, because you know he is going to make it look fantastic.
'It's still a grounded franchise'
Not only is "Expendables 4" sort of being measured against the previous movies in this franchise, but in the almost decade since "Expendables 3" came out, you have franchises like "Mission: Impossible," "Fast & Furious," "John Wick," even a whole bunch of superhero movies that are sort of raising the bar of action in the years since. Was that ever a conscious thought in your mind when you approached this movie? And could you feel that pressure on set, when you're filming this and trying to bring these wild set pieces to life?
I think that the interesting thing with "Expendables" is, it's still a grounded franchise. And the other features that you're talking about go beyond reality and really go to what I call sensationalism. And I think "Expendables" is not really into that category. They're really still just your hardcore, '80s-style action. And I think "Expendables 4" was all about staying true to that brand, not making it something that it's not. And I think it still has a lot of action, kicks a lot of ass, and we blow a lot of s*** up and it's still a hell of a lot of fun.
What was your general approach to keeping the set pieces and the choreography fresh this time around?
Keep stuff moving. And I feel like that's the one thing I really wanted to do that was a little bit different. Most of the time, we ride in cool-ass vehicles, and we get out, and then we fight. And I'm like, "Well, how do we actually stay in the vehicles and keep fighting, where we never stop moving? Or get on a motorcycle and keep it spinning?" That was the one thing I tried to bring, to just, "Keep this thing hauling ass and taking names."
Was there room for improvisation on set during filming? You hear about other franchises where they're sort of making these movies up on the fly, it seems like, and are constantly in flux. I'm just curious what production was like during "Expendables 4."
It's definitely a collaboration with those type of actors, right? It's really, you bring the choreography to the set, but you're also ... you've got great acting heroes, man. You want their involvement, right? So we would show them the fights and show them the action. I think it was really always this wonderful collaboration between myself and Jason and Sly.
'You want to do something fresh'
I feel like I can honestly say I don't remember ever seeing a bike chase set on the deck of a moving ship before [laughs]. Were there any specific touchstones for inspiration that you looked to when it came to crafting these sorts of set pieces and action sequences?
It's like you say, you want to do something fresh, right? You want to try to have the audience go, "Wow, man. I've never seen that before," right? So that was the impetus of, "Let's have a motorcycle chase on an aircraft carrier." And it's like, "What?" [laughs] "And mount some guns on it, at the same time," right? So in true "Expendables" fashion, that's kind of one of our little trademarks in the "Expendables 4," is this cool motorcycle chase on the ship.
Were there any sequences in particular that you read from the script and you just knew, in that moment, that you couldn't wait to bring it to life?
You know, one of the things that's really difficult for me, as a filmmaker and a stuntman, is when I read action on the page, to be honest, I don't really read much of it. Because I just need to know where it starts and how it ends, and I'll use my imagination in how I actually bring them together and try to create something original. And I think that's usually why people hire me on to direct films: They know that I'm going to take the action and kind of ... I don't want to say throw out what the writer did, but normally it's a placeholder for me to get in there and try to come up with something fresh and new, and see what the location has to offer as well.
'Are we adhering to this PG-13, or can we go back to hard R?'
It's no secret that "Expendables 3" sort of broke from franchise tradition by going with a PG-13 rating. And even in the marketing for "Expendables 4," it seems like you've been really pumping up the fact that it's a hard R. Just watching it at the press screening, there were so many moments where the audience instinctively yelled during some of the more gnarly kills. Was that a conscious thought in your mind? Did you really want to push the envelope on what you could get away with in terms of violence?
[laughs] 100%. My first question was, when they asked me if I wanted to direct it, I said, "Are we adhering to this PG-13, or can we go back to hard R?" And then, when they said, "No. 100% R," I was super excited, because I was like, "That's what the fans want in this franchise." So we could design visceral moments that, in your head, you think, Man, are we going too far? And then you're thinking, to myself, I think the audience is going to really love that. Fortunately, the audience response has been kind of classic because, exactly what you said, in moments that would pretty much gross most people out, there's been applause [laughs].
Did you ever get feedback that you maybe went a little too far and kind of had to pull back? Or how was it on the studio side of things?
The beauty of this one, Millennium, the owners of the franchise with Lionsgate, they understand the brand, they understand what the audience wants, and they're not afraid to go there, so they never had to say, "Hey. That's a little too graphic. Can we pull it back?" There was never that discussion, which was liberating as a filmmaker.
My final question for you: I know fans might not realize your deep connections with Spider-Man, especially your father, too, going back to the original "The Amazing Spider-Man" show [as second unit director and stuntman for Nicholas Hammond]. I was wondering if you had any just memories, any stories of working on the Sam Raimi movie back in the 2000s?
Yeah, my father was the original Spider-Man in '76. And when they asked my father and myself to come work on the Sam Raimi version, it was a lot of token appreciation for my father. And me, being his son, got to be there for that moment. To be honest [laughs], we didn't really do a hell of a whole lot on stunts on that show. We were there as just supporters and excited just to be a part of Spider-Man. But, I will say this: I hope one day I get to check that box and direct a Spider-Man, because that would just, that would make my whole world, man. So, maybe, one day.
"Expend4bles" is in theaters now.