Kevin Smith

Last week some quotes came out of a Cop Out roundtable interview where Kevin Smith talked about the notion of accepting money donated from fans to finance his movie Red State. Smith said that he would match donations based on the plan that had been considered so far (a point I think a lot of people missed) to bulk up the financing.

I thought the idea was interesting, though possibly so difficult to pull together from a legal perspective that it could never really work. Astoundingly, a lot of the other reactions to this idea were vehemently negative. There was a range of angry response, much of which boiled down to “how dare he ask for money?” based on the idea that Smith would get paid to make the film and would own the final product.

Smith was understandably less than happy with the negative reaction and has addressed the idea and the response to it in a blog post.

The first point to take away here is that Kevin Smith did not propose this idea. He’s not begging; fans proposed and then endorsed the concept. (I arguably didn’t make that clear in my original post, which was a mistake.) One fan mentioned the idea of donations via Twitter, which led to many others offering to donate. At that point Smith said he’d look into it, and according to his post he has spent as much as ten thousand dollars having lawyers check into the legal issues that would ensue.

Here’s a segment of his blog response, which you should check out in its entirety:

This fan-financed-film (aka, “begging”) hasn’t happened yet, nor might it ever happen. While it all sounds perfectly Amish, it’s fraught with crazy pitfalls and tax problems that have required hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in legal fees to investigate even the possibility of the fan-financed idea’s merit.

…If (and I mean IF with a huge fucking i & f) this fan-financed idea were to move forward? I’m not making a dime. If I were, as suggested, to turn to the fan-base to fund the movie, do you honestly think I’d even take a salary? I was just tickled and touched a bunch of people wanted to see it so badly, they were like “Here’s my twenty, if it’ll help.” All without having read a script.

…This isn’t about making money, you negative pricks: it’s about making movies. And what’s sickening about it? Motherfuckers screaming foul WRITE FOR MOVIE WEBSITES. You’d imagine they’d support the making of a movie.

Whew. Good thing we weren’t among the ones screaming foul.

I want to reiterate the point I tried to make the first time: this is a really intriguing idea, and if Smith and his lawyers could make it happen it could represent a small seismic shift in the way the business works. There’s no real reason it couldn’t work, besides the endless series of legal hurdles that get thrown in the path of any typical film getting made. Add a wildly unconventional financing package to the deal, and things could get really weird. But someone is likely to do this eventually, and Smith has a dream (that may be a pipe dream, but still) that this could be a sort of American Indie Movement v.3. That’s a thing I’d like to see come into being.

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  • graygrrrl
    I love the idea of a fan/cinephile supported movie studio! Understandably the legal "rigmarole" would be outstanding. However, why can't it happen? If not now, why not in the future? It could be the American Dogme- audience supported filmmaking that returns its profits to the piggy bank instead of into studio executive's pockets. What's more disturbing is they can find the funding for the millionth remake or throw away idea ("Battleship", really?), but we can no longer support original material. It's just sad.

    I've been waiting for solid financing for "Red State" for years, as I'm sure many of his fans have. The thought that he can't get funding for a low budget sci-fi pic makes sense- what does he know about shooting a sci-fi pic, but why not? The other idea thrown around that his movies have been duds is debatable- they've all turned a profit which is more than can be said about the majority of what's playing in megaplex's around the country. Give me a break. Maybe you should do more research, as suggested, before giving your opinion.
  • sLAPPY
    GODDAMMIT PEOPLE!!! IT WAS JUST AN IDEA!!!!
  • The idea is brilliant -- but I think it needs a bit of tweaking. How about this? You chip in, but you get movie tickets in return. So, if you put in $100, you'll get $100 worth of movie tickets.
  • LeMime
    Check out the band Marrillion on wikipedia: back in 2001 they asked their fans to 'pre-order' their new album before they even started working on it. The money was used to fund the album and their fans got a credit and a copy of the album in exchange for their 'investment', and Marillion got the freedom to make the music they want without studio interference, keep the full rights to the music and the distribution of it (they did strike a deal with EMI for distribution though). Since then, Marillion has made a few albums under that same system, and seemingly always got more and more pre-orders.

    This system can work and there's nothing wrong with it. The fans fund the artist so the artist is free to do what they want. Of course there's no guarantee that the result would be any good, but I personally would rather pay for someone like KS to try and promote a different way of making films, then watch another soulless studio funded remake/sequel...
    If the film ends up making money, then the proceeds could go to charity or fund other independent films (by KS, or better, to help some young directors make their own films). If it flops, then at least we tried something new.
  • Sam
    I love Kevin Smith, for good or bad he sucked me in with Clerks and I will adore him for life because of it. There are very few films that I can watch again and again and a) still laugh and b) still notice things I didn't notice the first 10 times round. Peer to peer and crowd sourced loans are already becoming more and more mainstream in recent years, and I think if he makes it work it will not only be an innovative way of funding films for the future but will get the film some good press on launch as well.
  • I'd donate my money toward HIT SOMEBODY before RED STATE. I have a sneaky suspicion that Kevin could make an all-time classic ice hockey film, and I wanna see it.
  • jerry seinfeld
    "...represent a small seismic shift"

    please explain. is it small, or seismic? I'm confused.
  • rwiggum
    "a small shift in the foundation" seismic =/= large
  • Nedendo
    Uwe Boll had the same idea almost one year before... I know he makes bad movies but he had the same idea, and everybody was screaming foul there
  • Tim
    He should just call up Tarantino.
  • CustoBEN
    Why wouldn't you want to help any director make a film? Especially one that's not from some kind of franchise already? He's got the right idea about all of this. If this comes through, and he can give the profit to other filmmakers to start making their own movies..., I mean, shit, how much more can you ask for? He's wanting to help out new filmmakers so they can atleast try and get started. we need more smaller films of better quality, than fewer bigger films with medicor stories. I'm hoping this takes off so I can donate to him and not get paid for it. I want to see that vision of his come out of this so we get more movies from unkown people.
  • HumanParaquat
    I'll donate. Why wouldn't you want to see an unconventional movie like this in a time of sequel and reboot upheaval? Quality or not, Smith will make you chuckleheads laugh in one way or another.
  • Steve
    Why does this make people so mad? No one is forcing you to give money to Kevin Smith & there's no one forcing you to go see the resulting film.

    Is your day really that boring that you have to open up an article that you know will make you angry, and then waste even more time using the comment section as a soapbox for you're Kevin Smith hatred.
  • rwiggum
    Because Kevin Smith is a fat fucking sell-out!

    But seriously, I simply don't understand the vitriolic hate for Kevin Smith. I don't love all of his films, but I don't hate any of them. And like it or not, you can't say that he hasn't developed his own unique voice, and one that has clearly evolved as time has gone on. And I think that he has grown as a filmmaker in that time, as well. Clerks II and Zack & Miri were easily his strongest films as a director, and I'm interested to see him work out of his element and try new things. Even if you despise the man (and come on, what a lame thing to rail against when there is so much *real* shit in the world to stand up against) you have to respect the fact that he has a clear vision of the films he wants to make and MAKES them.

    But the idea that a director is a "sellout" is beyond me. Maybe in extreme cases where a director actually disregards their artistic vision for purely financial reasons, but I could give two shits if a director makes a Doritos commercial if they still have some artistic drive left and put it to use. Directing is both an art and a job, and you have to balance those two to be successful.
    /tangent
  • Scrapps
    What does him being fat have to do with anything? Are you scared he's going to eat you?
  • rwiggum
    ...that was a joke, and a surprisingly common thread with online Smith-haters.
  • Jemaniac
    He could invest $100,000 of his own money (you know, out of his millions) and be able to make a quality horror movie while getting in touch with his indie roots. Look at all the great horror movies coming from the indie scene being made for less! If he believes in this project, he shouldn't be afraid of putting his own money into it. If I was in his position and no one would make my movie, I'd use some of the paycheck I got from COP OUT and prove to them that it would be awesome.

    I enjoy Kevin Smith's films, but come on, man! You don't have to stoop this low.
  • cltmikey
    you do realize his fans suggested this, right?
  • Jemaniac
    Fans can suggest bad ideas. I think it's dumb to act upon this fan suggestion. Just my opinion, I suppose.
  • cltmikey
    i think that he took a fans idea and turned that idea into a great concept. he is from the indie school and lets face the true indie movement died. to take a fan/film community funding and make a flick with the pure intentions on starting a fund to make independent films is brilliant (at least in theory). now it may work and it may not but if he doesnt try the film world will never now. if it works its brilliant. if it doesnt work then there really is no downside. people donate the money with the understanding that they wont get anything out of it and chances are its going to be all his fans that donate any way. but at least in a world that is doing nothing but recycling, remaking, and rebooting some one has a semi fresh idea. i just hope that it comes to fruition.
  • rwiggum
    Did you not read the article? He would match the donations. Plus, who says he WANTS to make a movie for $100,000, just because he "could?" That may not be the film he wants to make, and if he is going to produce it independently, why comprimise on things you don't have to?
  • Jemaniac
    Plus, Smith has already said he wanted to make this film smaller and more intimate like the old days. $100,000 to $500,000 sounds smaller to me and easy for him to fun himself.

    I could be wrong, I dunno. I, however, will not be donating my money.
  • Jemaniac
    *fund
  • Jemaniac
    He wouldn't have to settle on $100,000. He has more than that if he wants to invest more.
  • overwatch
    I wonder if ppl would ask for their money back if the movie sucked.
  • babyjaypan
    "....it's about making movies"


    Make me a movie I wanna watch!
  • CyT
    He's got my twenty thats for sure. I love the idea of donations and paying what you want for something, rather than getting forced into a price by corporations. It would also be so damn cool to see your name as a financier on a flick made by Kevin Smith!
  • I'd donate to support independent film. It's the same principle as the saying 'I may not like what your saying but I'll defend your right to do so.' I'll defend anyone's right to make an independent film as Hollyweird can eat you alive.
  • ChrisHarvey
    I'd donate.
  • i'd donate to get the movie out. people whine too much these days. if you wouldn't want to donate or you think it's greedy for whatever reason, don't fucking donate. you're free of your bitching now, move on.
  • Director Estrella
    USE THE SAME way stocks are used on Corporations, that way fans can buy shares of the film , see it being made and make a profit or take a loss at the box office...
  • TSDCS
    Didn't Office Space etc. flop at the box office, too? That obviously wasn't a Kevin Smith movie, but in this day and age films can make a hell of a lot of money on DVD. If the movie being talked about was actually good, that plus the hype of something like this actually happening on a large scale could be used to at least return the investments of the microlenders involved, if not actually turn a profit.

    Also, wow, you guys like to complain a lot.
  • Justin Jump
    What a douche. It's not about making movies, it's about making HIS movie.

    Some movie critics didn't like his idea, but they should because he wants to make a movie, the very medium of which they critique?

    NO!

    My big problem with this is that there's no guarantee of quality. And if the Cop Out trailer is any indication, there's actually almost a guarantee of LOW-quality.

    But if Terrence Malick ever needs a 20 spot from me, I got you homie..
  • Matt
    Because Terrence Malick cares so much less about making the exact movie that he wants to make. That's why Days of Heaven didn't take more than a year in post. *rolls eyes*
  • rwiggum
    That should read "Yeah, but I like Terrence Malick films."
  • Justin Jump
    No, I worded it right. Thanks though.
  • Justin Jump
    Yea, but Terrence Malick makes great films.
  • Dillon
    Your outrage is unjustified. You say that there's no guarantee of quality, but why does that make you mad? Its not like Kevin Smith is forcing you to donate, nor is he even forcing you to see the movie. So don't donate, then its no sweat off your back. If I donate and then Kevin makes an awful movie, that's my problem, not yours. Calm down you silly goose.
  • Justin Jump
    I didn't really care until he lashed out at people who hated this idea and called them 'negative pricks'. Way to keep it professional.
  • rwiggum
    ...But people lashed out at him. It isn't like people who criticize Smith are oh-so reasoned with their critiques. Most of the Smith bashing I see is in the "What a fucking hack! He makes shitty movies!" range. In general, the "negative pricks" are just that--pricks.

    Also, it's the dude's personal blog. Who says he has to "keep it professional?" Just because he's in the movie industry doesn't mean he has to have some public-facing persona that is separate and more 'professional' than his actual self.
  • Cordy
    COP OUT IS NOT A KEVIN SMITH MOVIE! People keep complaining about that movie, when first of all he didn't write it (but having read the script, it was phenomenal and I look forward to seeing what he and Morgan did with it), and he didn't say it was just for a paycheck, he said it was to fine tune his directing chops on a true studio movie, where he could focus on directing and not protecting his script.

    Please be informed when you complain about a movie/trailer.

    That being said I would gladly donate money. I like the idea of stocks, but I wouldn't expect any money in return or even a free ticket (maybe a pdf copy of the script after i donate), I just want to see Kevin Smith make a horror movie created from the idea of the extreme religious types.
  • Justin Jump
    Cop Out directed by Kevin Smith. He directed it, it's his name on the posters.

    Is Dark Knight a Christopher Nolan film or a David Goyer film? Exactly.
  • Justin Jump
    No Cordy, that doesn't make any sense.
  • Cordy
    Ok Sarzy... you are right about that. But either way yes, this is a Kevin Smith film in the fact that he directed it, but it will not be a Kevin Smith movie when you are watching it (I hope that makes sense).

    As a writer myself I am surely being overprotective of the idea that a movie belongs just as much to the writer as the director, but Smith has made it clear that he is happy to have made this film and enjoyed it, but he took a very different approach than he did with 'his' movies.
  • Sarzy
    His name wasn't on any of the Zack and Miri promotional materials either. Is that also not a Kevin Smith film?
  • Cordy
    His name is not being advertised anywhere for this movie. You show me one ad or poster or trailer or anything that mentions his name outside of being in the credits at the end and I will give up
  • JesseWhitehead
    False comparison. Nolan was one of the writers of Dark KNight as well as the director. Thanks for playing.
  • Poland626
    While I like KS, this idea COULD lead to problems in the future.

    Say a director asks for donations and receives, hypothetically saying, overall about $500 million dollars. An amount he wasn't expecting. Now, he's got $500 million dollars to spend with a movie he was only looking to spend $100 million or so on.

    What happens then? Does this mean that movies could have budgets of even over 1 billion if enough people participate?

    The economic problems from 1 flop of a movie with a 1 billion dollar budget or even 500 million would lead to problems, angry donators, possibly a bad movie, and TERRIBLE PR too!

    What would happen morally to us if we decide to spend more $ on making movies than say, helping lesser people. Now, I'm not going to say that's what will happen, but it's all possible
  • cltmikey
    His model is that the excess money and any money that the movie makes goes back into the pot for future projects for indie film makers and that the people can vote on what they want made.
  • Giant-Size Man-Thing
    I would gladly give Kevin Smith money if he agreed to never make another movie
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