David Lynch and Frank Herbert Discuss Dune

lynch-herbert-dune

Back in1983, the Waldenbooks chain recorded a long conversation between David Lynch and Frank Herbert. The occasion was the impending release of Lynch’s version of Dune. The final film, as most well know, was often derided as an artistic failure, and it was undoubtedly a commercial disaster. In the years since the film’s release, Lynch rarely speaks of it. Herbert died in early 1986, so he didn’t have time to see the film attain a certain level of respect in the sci-fi community.

But the movie has earned a large number of fans over the years, and rightly so. Though quite flawed, the film features incredible production design and film craft, elements which are often cited as the reasons for fan appreciation. But it is also interesting as an adaptation that isn’t afraid to muck around with the source a little bit. I think a lot more adaptations should indulge in changes. Listening to this interview, which appeared on YouTube this week, it seems evident that Frank Herbert might agree.

The interview is posted on YouTube in six segments; I’ve embedded them in series below, or you can check them all out here. David Lynch rarely gives long recorded interviews and never does DVD commentaries, so this is a rare example of him talking about one project in depth. He and Herbert eventually talk through the ideas that are at the base of Dune, with Herbert taking over for the second half for long discourse on the subject of messiahs, politics and moew. The interview is also sadly optimistic, as Lynch briefly mentions working on the script for a sequel.

With respect to the value of Lynch’s film, one of Herbert’s opening comments is a great way to start discussion about the contents of the conversation. I’d be curious to know how the various cuts Herbert liked differed from the final theatrical version, because at the time this was recorded he seemed quite happy with the film.

I get asked a specific question a lot of times, if the settings, the scenes that I saw in David’s film match my original imagination, the things I projected in my imagination. I must tell you that some of them do, precisely. Some of them don’t, and some of them are better. Which is what you would expect of artists such as David and Tony Masters. I’m delighted with that! Why not take it and improve on it visually? As far as I’m concerned the film is a visual feast.

Later, Herbert describes seeing The Elephant Man for the first time, and realizing they’d found the right guy because Lynch had such a grasp of visual language.

When you’re doing a film from the written word, you’re translating into a different language. It’s as though you’re translating from English into Swahili. The visual language is a different language.

I’m hoping the comments don’t turn into the old “Lynch’s Dune sucks!” vs “No it doesn’t!” pissing match. If nothing else, I’m hoping to see a conversation about the problems with Dune as a film, rather than a litany about how it is a bad film because it isn’t like the book. Spend some of your Friday listening to almost an hour of conversation featuring Lynch and Herbert, and argue the merits of various adaptation techniques in the comments below.

(Two notes: One, dig that crazy opening music in part one. I really miss intros like that. Two, how have some of Herbert’s messiah comments, as in part 4, not been endlessly sampled?)

[via iO9]

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  • jtcaseyjr
    I saw the movie before reading the book. I remember being extremely confused leaving the theater. So I bought the book and read it. After reading it, I realized what a horrible adaption of the book the movie really was. Now that all being said I will say that when I read the book the images I imagined of how things should look, were the images of the movie. Watching the movie now I think it is visually great, and I believe it is Dune as far as the look. But as far as the story as an adpation of the book it was horrible. I mean when you have a book as big as Dune is and with all the sequels to it, why add anything, I can understand taking things away, but adding stuff like the already mentioned weirding modules, is just beyond me. I saw the Sci-fi Remake of it and that was definitly closer to the book. But they changed the look and for me still to this day when I imagine what Dune looks like, its from Lynch's movie.
  • topheavy
    I am glad that lynch moved on from this positively.. and dune itself has a great big place in my heart. The dialog is wholely memorable, among other things.

    I also loved the mini-series, which stayed more closely to the book. The next movie will have much to contend with, but thankfully burg is out.
  • ben
    I always thought Lynch's Dune was great, in that it was exactly what it should have been: an surreal art house director trying to make an epic out of a classic Sci Fi book. Throw in some Toto and how can you complain?

    Any way you look at it, Lynch's Dune is a great snapshot in time of a collision between these forces. The alternative coulda been that he did Jedi?
  • Muad Dib's weird uncle
    Also, the Jodorowsky version (1973? 74?) had visualizations / pre-production sketches done by H.R. Giger (they still exist if you search "Giger / Dune") and the soundtrack would have been done by Pink Floyd.
  • guest
    Two words: weirding modules. Yes, yes, I know... but my issue isn't that "it wasn't in the book" but that it was a bad choice that disrupts the narrative for several reasons.

    First, it goes against the story's own premises. The audience knows "The Voice" doesn't work that way because the film (in the gom jabbar scene) has shown that it's a form of hypnosis, not telekenisis.

    Second, Chekov's gun -- No foreshadowing. This powerful new weapon is not mentioned as a reason why the Emperor/Guild plot the Atreides' destruction, but it should be. Seeing Paul use it in the training scene with Gurney would have been nice too. Instead it comes completely out of nowhere for a deus ex machina ending -- which, in a story that *already* features a space Messiah, is pretty clunky.

    Third, and related, one of the main narrative threads of Dune is Paul's struggle to come to grips with the source and nature of his mystical powers. Having spent most of the film establishing the premise that he himself does not fully understand or control them -- all of a sudden he knows how to build some karaoke machine that will grant Joe Fremen similar abilities? What, did he have a vision of the circuit diagram while in spice trance?

    Finally, the weirding modules go against Dune's main theme, which is: Outsider uses *religion* -- not secret technology -- to lead/exploit indigenous people. The spice IS the secret technology! (Herbert was trying to make a point here, about religions on this planet and their historic connection to actual hallucinogens. Just sayin'.) Also, it's supposed to be a major plot twist that the spice not only lets you see the future but (therefore) is necessary for FTL space travel. The weirding modules just distract and confuse the viewer while taking up screen time that could be better used to explain this connection and/or the sandworm life cycle and Paul's "Water of Death" gambit.
  • Lynch Lover / Dune Lover
    100% in agreement - this is THE flaw in the adaptation. Every second spent on the damn things could have been spent on telling the actual story... to much greater effect. The Ray Guns be damned. The rest of the story (in the film) is fine right up until that point... then, my guess, knowing that those will be the "solution" at the end allowed (forced?) the meandering pointlessness of the film.

    I haven't listened to the herbert/lynch interview yet, but my guess is that herbert didn't know about the modules.... they're the key!

    100% agreement.... you remove those and you force another film to come into existence. It really IS that simple.
  • Alex K.
    I should say that I read Dune too young and remember little about the book, but a lot about the experience. What I remember is being more interested in what I thought the characters and settings looked like than the story. But, having not read it since early adolescence, I don't remember the story at all - not really. I remember the broad strokes, but that's it. And as I recall, I was flabbergasted that it had been made into a movie. The scope is just unwieldy.

    I really liked the film Dune when I saw it. But Lynch is not a filmmaker overly concerned with story or pacing or what have you. His best films (Eraserhead, Mulholland Dr.) are immersive visual and aural experiences. I also love Blue Velvet and The Elephant Man, but both - despite their linear plots - are still mood pieces. If Lynch had co-written Dune with someone better at streamlining massive texts into a cohesive and fluid film, we wouldn't laugh at the film today.
  • pooz
    I've heard Lynch speak briefly on this movie. He regretted he didn't have "Final Cut", and he insisted upon it every movie since.
  • zebrat
    lynch himself has stated that he is not too fond of this film (if i remember correctly) and it was the reason that he went on to do whatever the fuck he wanted instead of trying to make big budget flicks for the studios. and thank god lynch does what he does.
    i would have liked to see alejandro jodorowsky get to make the dune movie that he wanted to make though. that would have been kick-ass. just take a look at jodorowsky's sci-fi comics if you don't believe me.
  • Slatters
    Not "too fond of it"? The guy Alan Smithee-d several cuts of the film and refuses to even discuss it during interviews. I think its safe to say he thinks its terrible.

    Joodorowsky's film sounded interesting, but it would have likely been every bit the mess that Lynch's was (and even more). The only way Dali agreed to play the Emporer was if there was a scene of him deficating on screen and Duke Leto was going to have his penis torn off by a bull near the beginning of the film.

    Yeah, real "kick ass".
  • zebrat
    sounds pretty good to me.
  • Slatters
    Just imagine the Dune-purists complaining though. A constant whine that stretches beyond the galaxy...
  • Phil
    I purchased this cassette back in the early Nineties at a flea market for two dollars, and it has remained one of my prized possessions ever since. Although the discussion with both Lynch and Herbert is interesting, it becomes truly fascinating once it is only Herbert discussing his thoughts on religion, politics, and society without distraction. I have been trying to find a way to convert it to a digital file for a while now (my cassette is quite old and I fear its deterioration), and am pleased that someone has made it available to the masses. Highly recommended.
  • Truecoat
    Coming from someone who didn't read the book until way after seeing the movie, I was left confused the first time I saw it. I knew there was a good story there but wasn't used to all the terms and names. After seeing it again and a few times after, I really like the movie. The book on the other hand was somewhat dull for me. I enjoyed changes Lynch made between the two but that's my opinion.
  • papasanchez
    The author died of disappointment. Sleep well do you lynch? sleep well?!
  • zebrat
    he sleeps like a baby.
  • zebrat
    a baby floating through the air. slowly emerging from the darkness down a dimly lit and narrow hallway.
  • zebrat
    that last comment was directed at 'don't bite the reverse hate' in case you are as confused as i am.
  • zebrat
    good sir, please excuse my ignorance, but could you kindly tell me just what the fuck you are talking about?
  • don't bite the reverse hate.
    dear anon posters,

    stop stealing my "reverse name hate"; get your own shit.

    sincerely;

    -bay area hate.
  • papasanchez
    Hilarious!
  • Mladen
    Agree that straying from the source was not the problem at all. In fact Lynch and his screen writers should have compressed the story further to get at its essence.

    The problem with Dune is that its a sprawling narrative with some very cool sequences, and Lynch's film got caught up in attempting to film ALL of those sequences and exploring most of the sprawling plotlines. Having to provide full context for each of them while progressing the story killed the film's momentum quite early on. Even in the mangled cut-up version of the film there's far too much exposition.

    The book's main narrative strand and thematic essence needed to be identified and focused on, and extraneous plotlines and characters been combined and removed.

    So much promise in the film and some extraordinary sequences, but a poor adaptation of the story, which desperately needed compression.

    Very keen to watch these vids now, thanks.
  • Dune is probably the worst adaptation ever made.

    They should teach it film schools on how not to adapt. That horrible inner monologue cop out, the filming of unfilmable scenes, the passiveness of the characters that work in novels but is boring on films, trying to explain massively complex exposition ultimately unimportant in as little time as possible, way too many characters, no sense of surprise or wonder, etc, etc, etc.
  • Slatters
    Repo Chick.
  • tyler
    i actually really like Dune, its weird but its pretty grand scale. i dunno. can't imagine it being any other way than it is, since i grew up with it.
  • freemachine
    Straying from the source was not the problem with Dune (1984). The problem was that Lynch was completely out of his element (an arguably difficult thing to define). It was visually beautiful, but it lumbered along with an awkwardness that reflected the director's inability to fully realize the story. I never though I'd be describing Lynch in this way, but I really felt that he was pulling his punches with this one (if that makes sense).
  • derka
    Lynch’s Dune sucks!

    No it doesn’t!
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