I hauled my ass out of bed at 7:30 AM ton Saturday morning and saw The Dark Knight at 9 AM in a packed IMAX theater, and boy was it was worth it. From the opening establishing shot, which was incredibly vivid and breathtaking, I knew that this film would be something different. It’s been said dozens of times already, but Nolan truly uses the entire screen (six-stories tall as it is) as a canvas to paint a rich and dramatic tale. My podcast review will have to wait for Monday night, but I felt the overwhelming desire to write something about the subject.
Please note: The following is not a review. I will not be discussing Heath Ledger’s tremendous performance, nor Nolan’s directorial choices, nor my problems with the film (yes, I did have some). It’s an attempt at coming to grips with some of the themes in the movie, a cathartic but not exhaustive brain dump. So here we go…
[From here on out, SPOILERS ABOUND. DO NOT READ THIS ARTICLE IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE DARK KNIGHT YET]
The final monologue that Commissioner Gordon brings the themes from Batman Begins to their logical conclusion: Namely, that as a man, Bruce Wayne’s powers to evil crime are rather limited. As a man, he can be corrupted, he can be killed, and ultimately, he can be defeated. As a symbol he can become far more, and at the end of The Dark Knight, he becomes, to society, an uncontainable force in very much the same way the Joker was. He becomes hunted, making people believe that he cannot be controlled, that he has lost all respect for societal norms and the rule of law. As Gordon realizes he needs to blame the murders on Batman, he acknowledges not only the need for society to push their fears onto something, but their hopes as well (which he allows them to do by preserving Dent’s good name).
In order to keep from tearing itself to shreds, society needs to believe in the incorruptibility of good and the relative remoteness of evil. The Dark Knight points us to ways in which we cope with this need.
Simultaneously, it’s also made clear that, in fact, Batman never succumbs to his own dark, inner urges. In the movie, Bruce Wayne says the line, “I’ve seen what I have to become to fight men like him,” and he rejects the path he has to take to stop Joker, a man who has no rules whatsoever. In one of the more memorable scenes from the film, the two have a showdown in Gotham’s city streets, the Joker manically screaming “Hit me!” as Batman is propelled towards him in the bat pod. As much as Batman wants to annihilate the Joker, he knows he can’t violate his own moral code, and almost sacrifices himself to prevent this from happening (albeit as part of a broader ruse to capture him). Still, Batman doesn’t seek to kill evildoers, but to bring them to justice. The dichotomy that the film sets up between Joker and Batman is one of chaos vs. order. The dichotomy between Joker and Dent is one of good vs. evil…
“You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.”
These words, spoken by Harvey Dent in the film and its trailers, portend the inevitable corruptibility of heroes in the Batman universe. At the beginning of the film, Dent represents absolute good, a goodness that’s so pure, that has so much potential to change Gotham, that even Batman is thinking of hanging up his spurs.
Dent is referred to frequently as Gotham’s “White Knight,” a term used throughout the course of the film. I was speaking with a friend about this movie today and he pointed out that when he went to see the movie he did not anticipate “The Dark Knight” could actually also refer to Dent, a clever yet profound subtext to the film (and that’s not even mentioning the night/knight pun, which I will choose never mention again after this sentence). Indeed, Dent’s journey from light to darkness is handled plausibly and adeptly in the film, which makes his story arc monstrously tragic.
Many people have remarked on how depressing the film is and I would say that I mostly agree: The Joker’s ability to destroy that which Dent loves and turn him to the evil that he becomes is sad in a way that can only be experienced by seeing the film. But the apparent relative ease with which Joker does this is what makes the Dent storyline strike so close to home: The film makes us realize that we, as humans are limited, and that our capacity to be good is subject to the vagaries of fate and whatever the hell else decides to destroy what we love. Dent is not just a proxy for hope, he’s a proxy for us as well, reminding us of the duality that lies within each of us.
As Nolan has stated in interviews, this movie was not meant to explore the Joker’s backstory because it’s really not that important to the film. Simply put, the Joker represents anarchy and chaos, a constant and near-unstoppable force whose origins are inexplicable (something which is made clear rather explicitly when the Joker delivers two creepily different monologues as to his scars’ origins). Many people compare Joker to other film and comic book villains but the one that I think he can be most closely associated with is Anton Chigurh from No Country for Old Men, who is a force of nature. His origins are unclear but his actions are strongly felt by those around him (to put it mildly).
The Joker is unpredictable and can’t be reasoned with, nor does he have any broader goals except to create chaos and destruction. When I saw the movie Funny Games and watched an interview Michael Haneke, I was struck by something he said: To paraphrase, he said that we as individuals have personal spaces that go unsaid but are accepted by almost everyone. When people violate this personal space, the results can be terrifying. In a similar fashion, the Joker upends the genre conventions of a villain in that he has no inhibitions and refuses to hew even to the ultra-basic moral code of criminals (see: the opening scene). When a character has no values that you as a viewer can relate to and hold on to, the results are extremely disorienting. This unmoors our basic assumptions of the person’s capabilities.
All of this comes to a head in the hospital scene, when Joker gives Harvey Dent the “It’s all part of the plan” monologue, a speech that’s chilling not just for its content and delivery, but also because of its incisive commentary for us as Americans. I will not make any overtly political statements here, except to say that the complacency with which we as Americans have accepted atrocities and miscarriages of justice committed around the world as well as right here at home may have consequences beyond what we can imagine. The Joker’s monologue points to our baffling perceptions and reactions to the events that disrupt our lives. In our society, what exactly constitutes cause for alarm? And how much sense do those standards really make?
What do people do when they are put in the worst of situations? What would you do if you were given the ultimate power over someone else? The movie touches upon these questions of human nature, but they are perhaps its least developed.
We see this theme pop up several times, most notably in two separate instances. Firstly, it’s evident when Batman breaks into Wayne enterprises and gives Lucius Fox fee reign of the cell phone hackery he has perpetrated upon all of Gotham. Fox demurs, believing that one person should not have this power. People are so easily corrupted that even an initial desire to do good can ultimately lead to evil, the film seems to be saying. This is further confirmed as the entire video interface comes to a fiery end, in a spectacular Batman-programmed self-destruction.
We also see it at the very end, when two separate sets of people are given the ability to destroy each other. Given the lead-up to the film’s climactic action scene, it’s a little bit strange that the boat-bomb storyline ends in the way that it does: With both criminals and everyday citizens concluding that they won’t take another’s life just to preserve their own. Throughout the whole movie, Nolan seems to be trying to tell us we are all easily subject to the temptations of the dark side, but the rest of the movie is already so relentlessly dark that perhaps this ending was more palatable to general audiences.
Humans can’t handle power responsibly. But maybe, in our shared humanity, there is still hope for compassion.
***
At its best, The Dark Knight holds a mirror up to us as viewers and asks us to look closely, to examine ourselves as humans and as citizens. It doesn’t always do this gracefully, but it tries far more than any comic book movie in recent memory has ever done. The fact that it succeeds most of the time is a testament to Nolan’s script and artistry.
Discuss: What themes did you see in the Dark Knight? How well did you feel the film explored them?
Make sure to tune in on Monday night, 7 pm PST / 10 PM PST to Slashfilm’s LIVE page to hear us review The Dark Knight with Kevin Smith!
July 20th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I think one recurring theme was how Batman’s only true weakness is dogs.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Awesome analysis
July 20th, 2008 at 9:14 am
I just got back from seeing TDK for the first time, so I still need time to digest (and see it again). However, I will say that with regards to the boat scene, I was very surprised that Nolan didn’t have the people killing each other. It’s not surprising that the film had the boats save themselves for a number of reasons (studio wouldn’t allow it, story arc), but it’s my opinion that if the movie had the free reign of honesty someone would’ve pushed the button.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:19 am
Wow. You have hit the proverbial nail on the head, in a much more profound way than I could ever even try to, so I won’t…. Kudos.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:26 am
LOS ANGELES (AP) — A Warner Bros. executive says the Batman sequel “The Dark Knight” has taken in $155.34 million to top “Spider-Man 3″ for best opening weekend ever at the box office.
The figures released Sunday show “The Dark Knight” more than $4 million ahead of the $151.1 million first weekend for “Spider-Man 3″ in May 2007.
Studio distribution chief Dan Fellman says “The Dark Knight” also broke the “Spider-Man 3″ record for best debut in IMAX large-screen theaters with $6.2 million. “Spider-Man 3″ opened with $4.7 million in IMAX cinemas.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:40 am
i really, really hope that “symbology” is a boondock saints reference, and not an honest mistake.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Solid article. Really thought-provoking.
As for themes, how about these ones:
1. How evil can corrupt a system: The Joker is an agent of chaos and madness. But his actions are all for nothing if he can’t reach the people who he must stop. Instead of bribing cops and DAs as the mob has done before, he instead uses his favorite tactic — fear. He puts the families of good people in danger and then asks them to do as he says. And in the end they do because they cannot see themselves losing their loved ones. The Joker has effectively found the cracks in the wall and uses them to do as he will.
2. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions: Harvey, Gordon and Batman go after the mob. All that does is unleash the Joker. Batman tries to save Harvey and let’s Rachel go boom. All that does is bring about Two-Face. Gordon and Batman choose to save Harvey’s legacy. And all that gets Batman is status as outcast. Is Gotham better at the end of the movie by the actions of these men? It could be argued that no, it isn’t.
3. “The path of the righteous is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish…”: Contrast the actions of the 3 heroes (Dent, Gordon and Batman) with the responses of the citizens of Gotham and ask yourself “Do they deserve all of this sacrifice?” Time and again they turn inward and self-centered. The Joker’s killing criminals and fighting Batman? No one’s bothered. He turns his evil towards the Gothamites and, all of a sudden, Batman must surrender. At all times, they’re looking for the quick and clean way out. As Gordon ends the movie, “Batman is the hero they deserve.” Someone dark, menacing and incorruptible. Someone who’ll do what they can’t, won’t or don’t want to do.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:47 am
great movie but was crammed with too many things i think.
oh and i saw it at the imax and the sound was awful..
the score was way louder than the dialogue making plot points
easy to miss
anyone else have that problem?
July 20th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Very “moralistic” of you in the third paragraph, but it’s very unpatriotic and sounds somewhat blind to refer to “atrocities and miscarriages of justice around the world” as if they are something our country is doing.
Give it some background by first looking up the word “atrocity” in the dictionary, then the encyclopedia as you gain a history of this word and realize it actually does depend on context, motive, and goals.
What’s so amazing to me is how our country had one of the biggest atrocities committed against it, but rather than stand by our country, all our weak-kneed country-men can do is wax keen on imaginary dictatorships and so-called injustices.
This is even sillier against the backdrop of any comic story, including Batman, which accepts and even encourages the idea that absolute retribution enacted through violence is well desired, and even oftentimes absolutely necessary.
More Americans need to put their mouths where their heart is, or their mind where the mouth is, so their heart can change.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:58 am
With the boat bomb storyline , I thought it was more along the lines of even the criminals dont like having their hands forced to kill another. The would rather have the choice be on their own terms.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:09 am
There were also a lot of political undertones, for example the bat sonar and spying on people being part of Batman’s struggle between anarchy and structure. And how Harvey had a plan in every decision he made, but after “an incident” he became more rash and left more things to chance. And how one person took the blame for another person’s actions to maintain his public image. And how Batman is given elevated power in a time of crisis and he is going to have to give it up.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Ditto what notatoad said. :)
And I loved the dog analogies as well.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:20 am
Another theme that you might have missed is the inevitable destruction of Gotham City. The part where they’re bringing out the guy who was going to reveal who Batman was, and a bunch of people start rioting, this sort of foresees the cities future. Batman cant uphold the entire city by himself, and without Dent to help him out anymore, he had no choice but to put the crimes on him to make sure Dents image remains as a symbol of hope for the cities’ population.
Batman is still stuck between preserving his own rules, or being like the Joker, who has no rules, and going out and bringing forth justice once and for all.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:41 am
I liked the whole idea joker brings to Batman that they have no rules, and are free from society. It explains a logical view piont of why they have superheroes and supervillians. Sure Batman can not take a life but he does have free rein, He can leave gotham he can fight crime with out a badge, He doesnt need a warrant to go after someone. Joker has no rules or nothing holding him back. He can kill with out reason.
I also liked how the film is more of a mind war than actually physicall war. Joker in the end wins but not exactly. The whole time he wants to prove that good canbe corruitble, He fails with Batman,The Dark Knight, but successes with Dent, the White Knight, luckly at the end Batman almost takes on a jesus character by taking on the burden of Dent’s misdoings. The film is deep and i loved it.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:48 am
It’s great to discuss themes, but the one thing I don’t like about comic book movies - and this definitely applies to TDK - is that they (Nolan, in this case) so explicitly tell us what the themes are. I know some are comparing TDK to No Country for Old Men. Now the latter is a movie that you can have a great discussion about themes - because they are not so readily apparent. The themes that Nolan wants us to take away from the movie are printed in capital, bold-faced type by comparison.
Still, I loved TDK - but I draw the line at discussing the philosophical/literary aspects, which are fairly pedestrian.
July 20th, 2008 at 10:59 am
BFFredo brought up a point some of my friends and I were debating after our first viewing, did Batman choose to save Dent over Rachel or did the Joker switch the addresses? I was on the side of Batman making the choice that Dent was more important, and backed it up by saying that there was no moment of shock when he arrived and saw Dent. Isn’t that choice of choosing Dent over Rachel basically Batman/Bruce Wayne choosing Gotham’s interests over his own life, and thus sentencing himself to be The Dark Knight forever?
Was anyone else debating this? I need to see the film again to catch all the subtleties, which is for me, the highest praise.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:05 am
PRK,
Joker switched the addresses. There’s a brief moment of shock for Batman when he gets there, but he also knows he doesn’t have time to save Dent and cry about not saving Rachel at the same time.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:14 am
Don’t forget the Biblical themes, the Joker is the devil tempting Batman and the people of Gotham, and Batman takes Dents sins on his shoulders at the end and is crucified by the public.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:16 am
The theme is everyone loses.
This was one humorless, grim, mean-spirited tome.
(Yeah, count me as the one person on the planet that hated it.)
Terrorism and this post 9/11 b.s. has sucked all the fun and spirit out of Batman.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:31 am
On the boats: I was so glad they didn’t blow each other up! Thing about this: when the Joker is strung up at the end, he says “you think I would leave the battle for Gotham’s soul up to a fistfight?”
They were battling for Gotham’s soul!! And it’s proof that the Joker lost that neither boat blew the other up. I don’t know how realistic it is, but (and don’t make fun of me here) it very nearly reaffirmed my faith in humanity.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:37 am
Touching on the mentions of Gotham’s fate, there’s also the theme of what Gotham deserves over what it needs.
On the other side of the incorruptible aspects of symbols, Batman, to the people of Gotham, will now be seen as corrupted, falled. Only Gordon and his family will know the truth. As Gordon points out, Dent, as White Knight, as the facade Batman and Gordon have created, is the hero Gotham needed, a hero without a mask, pure. As a criminal hellhole, they needed someone like Dent to bring the dawn. But Batman, as everyone will now see him, as Dark Knight, again through that same facade, is the hero Gotham, as a flawed place, deserves, but not the one it needs.
July 20th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
@ david
I’ve heard these comparisons, several times and i gotta disagree: Chigurth was motivated by money. his motives and reasons are very clear and tangible. he would not be in ncfom if the money wasn’t. conversely the joker is there to oppose untangible themes. joker would eat anton and spit him out.
a review on aicn had claimed that joker was probably a similar man to alex (clockwork orange) and the guys from funny games, and their themes. again NO F-ING WAY. the joker isn’t a spoiled kid from the upper class, he doesn’t even care about heygiene, and you can smell him from the theater seats.
the best comparison was made by nolan: this guy is the shark from jaws. he moves and acts for his own survival and amusement - nothing else.
July 20th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
It is either you smile before you die, or someone else will make you smile and then you die…
July 20th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
What I liked about the ending is that Wayne/Batman realized that he couldn’t be the hero that people loved and looked up to. He realizes that he has to stand apart, that he has to be beholden to no one, that he has to make the hard choices that no one likes. This makes him more of a vigilante, but maybe this is the hero the people of Gotham deserve.
The Joker wins in turning Dent to evil, but this makes Bruce realize that he has to be even more isolated. I don’t want to jump the shark, but maybe this is an opening for Robin… Or not.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
The battle I had both times I saw this movie was the question
Who do you have to screw over and to what exstent until doing the right thing, is now in the wrong?
Bruce Wayne has to battle with his control as batman and what that means to Gotham. Does he do what’s right and have the city hate him, or succumb to the city and further more ending all hope for a sold clean democracy?
Batman truly became the dark knight in this film. Not allowing the who or what behind the wrong affect him.
Whether a citizen for batman, or the FBI cops raiding for the ‘hostages’- wrong is wrong.
Great concepts and thoughts Chen! See you tomorrow night at 10 (and of course with Smith)
July 20th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
it taught me to put a smile on my face…. why so serious people…..
July 20th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
But alas it is NOT a perfect film. How, preytale, does Joker manage to infiltrate every event or setting at his whimsy. This would take countless hours of careful planning and well payed, skilled and motivated goons. Yet Joker has no allegiances, offers nothing to co-conspirators and even offs them for his own delight. It’s a major, major contrivance in a film that represents itself as the “realistic” superhero film, that Joker so unrealistically can wreak havoc simply to drive the plot forward. Add that Dent turns a little too quickly, then sorta suddenly dies so we can tie our little thematic bow. And the ferry scene? Oh come on. First, plenty of officials would suspect a larger plot to the bomb laden bridge business. Then several ferry-goers would suspect a no-win in the social experiment. And did anyone on either ferry think, “hey if we blow the other one up, that would ignite the trigger on that boat, killing us.” Oh but characters in movies never communicate with each other and are dumber than even your dumbest coworker. Nitpicking? Hardly when you consider the hyperbole surrounding this thing and the “realistic” nonsense. Love Batman, still really loved the movie, but as is become thematic in Nolan’s career, a couple of lame choices that stick with you near as much as the grandeur onscreen. Just think the hokey sitcom like manner in which the body double concept was handled in the Prestige.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
The whole deal with the two boats kind of reminded me of Crime and Punishment. Basically that no one could take the life of another, even if it’s for the benefits of others, and not suffer any guilt or remorse.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
The two groups of people not killing each other on the boats is the light at the end of the tunnel for this picture. The fact that Nolan wasn’t afraid enough to have redemption, as it would have been easy to keep it grim all the way through, is great.
July 20th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
JayDrizzle
you are to be put frankly completely wrong.
1.) just because you don’t see what the Joker does offscreen does not mean he just sits around waiting for batman to do something. furthermore he isn’t working alone, there are numerous references to the corrupt cops, and he has other criminals under him. they don’t follow him because they’re loyal, they follow him because he’ll kill them if they don’t.
2. )if one of the boats blows up it would not set off the trigger. a key has to be turned. an explosion would not emulate this action. they didn’t choose not to communicate with each other, the radio was killed. the captain was shown trying. the people on the boat handle their dilemma in avery human way, going through the worst of options and even coming close to doing something horrible but can’t bring themselves to it.
3.) dent does not turn quickly, his life was completely fucked over in every way. he had a very realistic response the his situation.
July 20th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
oh and you’re an asshole for trying so hard to dislike suck a fucking good movie
July 20th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Well said, brian.
Just saw the movie for the second time, both in IMAX, and it was just as good as the first time. This one’s goin down in the recordbooks.
Also, yah, i love the ’symbology’/Boondock Saints reference. If indeed, that’s what it was.
July 20th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
What, was this article written by a 1st year philosophy major, or intentionally dumbed down after carefil consideration of the reading audience?
I mean you actually had to list “good over evil” as a theme? Please do not try to play collectively smarter than your individual pieces again. Just stop it.
This is a freakin comic book movie. Everything you said above could be applied to like Meet the Spartans. Jeez.
July 20th, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Anyone else wonder at the end why BM and Gordon just blamed the freakin JOKER for the murders of those six cops?
I’m sure the public would have totally bought it, since Joker already really did work with and bribe the corrupt officers.
The whole “Batman takes the blow for society, he is our viginlante, our Dark Knight!” speech made me want to vomit. If he chose to needlessly take the rap and have the public lay blame on him, well, you make your bed buddy. Could have just layed blamed, I dunno, maybe on like the bad guy that you spent the entire movie trying to catch who everyone on the city was in fear of and targeted by.
Very poor writing logic there. Just for a crappy, tear wiping moment of heroic gayness at the end.
July 20th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
uh oh. Jerry’s on that crack corn again…
…talkin with no sense because he’s obviously a dumb sh*t..
have you seen this movie? I wish youd take your meet the spartans BS and go kill yourself because TDK was by far way more intriguing and complex than you will ever understand.
obviously. your 12.
July 20th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
@teastman07
Did you even read the above article? JerryCrackCorn may have no sense in picking screennames but he wasnt degrading The Dark Knight. Just the above article, which seemed to have been forced and written by someone desperate to get a “review” out quickly after only seeing it one time.
@JerryCrackCorn
I agree wit you.
July 20th, 2008 at 4:55 pm
Er, anyone else wonder at the end why BM and Gordon didn’t just blamed the freakin JOKER for the murders of those six cops?
I’m sure the public would have totally bought it, since Joker already really did work with and bribe the corrupt officers.
The whole “Batman takes the blow for society, he is our viginlante, our Dark Knight!” speech made me want to vomit. If he chose to needlessly take the rap and have the public lay blame on him, well, you make your bed buddy. Could have just layed blamed, I dunno, maybe on like the bad guy that you spent the entire movie trying to catch who everyone on the city was in fear of and targeted by.
Very poor writing logic there. Just for a crappy, tear wiping moment of heroic gayness at the end.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
btw, thought the movie was alright. Just didn’t care for the “batman/vigilante on the run” crap at the end. seemed really forced and rushed, and like I exhibited above, illogical.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:21 pm
the joker was elsewhere trying to blow people up on ferry’s when those deaths occurred. and the end monologue made sense. anyone who isn’t on the retarded side could figure out they needed dent to be the hero, not batman, cause dent is a real identifiable and relatable person, whereas batman is more of a symbol.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
jerry’s comments are always shitty and without merit anyways, so who really cares what is in is post.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Well, the joker was also in prison when Dent was blown up and dawson was killed, pretty sure he got blamed for those.
You failed.
July 20th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
Just seemed like Nolan had no freakin idea how to end the thing, so he’s like “Hey, chaps, why dunt we have Batman become a heroic bloke by having him take the blame fer Dent. Den we can have him be sort of a tragic figure yanno? Fade to black, cha-ching. Na-what-I-mean?”
July 20th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Think about it, what was the point in even capturing the Joker? There was the clear answer. Hey, you want to protect Dent and lay the blame on someone.
Why not the dude who was behind Dent’s transformation (both internally as well as externally), who called into live tv shows seen by millions, who sent torture videos to the nightly news, who everyone in the city knew was evil?????
Having batman do it was reeeeeally over-indulgent on the part of the filmmakers to try and push the audiences sympathy buttons. It’s like, if something in the movie occurs where you feel suddenly shaken out of the story, and like you are being brutishly forced to feel a certain feeling under ridiculous, logic mutilating circumstances, that spells directorial fail in my book.
And that’s how I felt at the end. Suddenly making Batman an “outlaw” two minutes before the movie ended all for the sake of him doing something “heroic” and “selfless” before the credits rolled to leave you with a feeling of “aw shucks” and “gee whiz!”
It’s like Batman’s saying in his gruffest voice: “I’m not going to let Joker take reponsibility for all of the mayhem and chaos he has caused the city, I’m going to needlessly take it just cause it makes me look like a dark, tragic figure before the lights in the theater come on and how heroic I am will be the last thing they remember!”
Lame.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
I loved the movie but feel there where to many things and plot lines going on to make this very cohesive, I must see it again to truly focus on all the plot threads here. but over all very well done. I must admit batman sounded weird talking in the scary voice he uses it didn’t sound natural at all. Sucks the batmobile is toast and the bat pod was cool , No batcave ?????
July 20th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Alright Jerry, i thought you were sane, but you completely lost it now. All of your recent posts and ideas are absolute horse shit.
I blame YOU for the murders of those 6 cops.
and the entire movie led up to the ending, where batman had the realization of what he must become to be the hero of Gotham.
You fail at having opinions that don’t suck.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
You belittle my posts. But see, they have thought. Yours are nothing but empty attacks and childish come backs.
when you’re ready to sit at the adult table, you let us know, champ. ;)
July 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
@Max
L O L thats exactly what i was thinking when the joker sent the dogs on him at the end.
25 masked men with guns? nooo prob!!
a few dogs with sharp teeth? ….shiiiiiiit they discovered my true weakness.
i mean dogs do kill bats, right?
July 20th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
@JerryFag
You can’t say you loved a movie, yet you hated the ending.
Your so-called “opinions” are nothing beyond foolish rantings of a mentally retarded child saying they discovered how to make something better that the whole world already agrees is full and epic to its max.
Keep your paragraph-long substance-less ponderings to yourself, cause not only does no one care what you have to say, but if i could i would delete them from the site so no one else will be submitted to your horse-shittery.
Please Reply With Something Foolish :)
July 20th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Also, are we all on the same page that Maggie Gyllenhal (sp?) is ugly. Not necessarily in this movie, just, um yanno, all the time.
Ledger was decent as the Joker, although don’t know how much of that can be attributed to the make-up.
Having 2 base jumping scenes seemed a tad unneeded. Like the production was thinking “Hey, renting all of the skyscaper cam rigs is going to costs a crapload. But if we can write it into two totally different scenes, it’s like we’re getting it for half price!”
And did they really need *three* tension building, high pitched siren, people get offed in separate locations moments? Refer to the scene where the Joke is crashing Wayne’s fundraiser and circling Dawson while commissioner is sipping toxic booze, yadda, yadda. We’ve all seen this trick done at the end of Godfather when Mikey’s settling all debts by making Moe “do you know who I am” Green spurt pink blood intercut with that dude in the revolving door getting capped on etc, etc, etc. But that was for the finale of gf.
By the third time in TDK, it was seriously verging on gimmicky. I was like “Seriously, another montage ‘reckoning’. Again?”
July 20th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
@JerryCrack
You can’t say you loved a movie, yet you hated the ending.
Your so-called “opinions” are nothing beyond foolish rantings of a mentally retarded child saying they discovered how to make something better that the whole world already agrees is full and epic to its max.
Keep your paragraph-long substance-less ponderings to yourself, cause not only does no one care what you have to say, but if i could i would delete them from the site so no one else will be submitted to your horse-shittery.
Please Reply With Something Foolish :)
July 20th, 2008 at 6:38 pm
wow your post suck jerry
the joker was blamed for dent and rachel because he set them up. they couldn’t tell the citizens he killed the cops because there is no plausible way of blaming the joker as he was busy terrorizing other people. your solution is a copout to logic and just plain shitty storytelling.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
So he can take the blame for a crime while he is sitting in jail, but not when he’s out on the loose, and knowingly placing other peoples lives in danger from afar?
Seriously, think before you speak.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:46 pm
“your solution is a copout to logic and just plain shitty storytelling.”
Yes, that is what i am proposing. Good that we are finally on the same page.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
batman can’t be the hero because gotham needs a hero with a face and that they can identify with. if you blame the joker, batman is still being the hero. they needed to cancel out batman as the hero so dent remains the whit knight. maybe you should learn to listen to the movie you watch, you won’t look as stupid.
and yes they can blame the joker for rachel and dent while being in a different place cause he used corrupt cops dumbass
July 20th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Truth is, it was a paper-thin ending to drum up some sympathy and nobility for the character and you totally bought into it no questions asked.
You’re like the dead people in the Sixth Sense, you see what you want.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
truth is, i’m right and you have no logical reasoning otherwise
July 20th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
“batman can’t be the hero because gotham needs a hero with a face and that they can identify with. if you blame the joker, batman is still being the hero. they needed to cancel out batman as the hero so dent remains the whit knight. maybe you should learn to listen to the movie you watch, you won’t look as stupid.”
Ah, welcome to the big table. And with a thought no less!
How does blaming the Joker make Batman the hero. Hell, they could have lied and said Dent caught the Joker.
See what i’m saying, once Gordon and BM exhibited that they were willing to lie to the public by telling everyone that BM was guilty, well, they opened up the plot hole then that, well hey, why not just lie and blame the joke, say the shining knight Dent captured him to boot?
It was not imperative to the plot that BM had to take the blame. Could have said anybody did it really, and BM could have just gone more underground, people would have forgotten about him in like a week. It was self-indulgent of the character. And that being the case, it counters feelings of tragedy directed towards him.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
I really appreciate your thoughts David, especially the ideas behind the Joker’s hospital speech about society’s standards; that was the most powerful and thought provoking scene in the film for me personally.
Not only was it a moment that raised questions about indifference to pain outside of our own and the acceptance of order imposed on us by “schemers” (as the Joker would say), I felt it was a near perfect encapsulation of what the Joker’s purpose is as a character, in the comics or film; that is to show the “Joke” that is society’s morality, that the morality we hold is just a veil that can cover our true, selfish, and ultimately corruptible selves. The Joker might show all the signs of a madman, be I believe he brought up a very valid and sane argument to Dent in the hospital.
Here’s an interesting question: was the Joker really insane? Or could he be considered just a very hellbent individual who sought to prove that everyone could be just as cruel and evil as him.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:01 pm
It’s like, I can’t feel bad for the guy if he’s pointlessly taking on someone elses baggage simply to give himself something to brood over and pan the audience for bleeding heart change.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:02 pm
dent couldn’t have captured the joker, he died (ceremony in the street). two-face lived on after him. which means people would believe batman captured the joker and he’d be their hero. and there’s no reason to blame the joker when it works in their favor to blame batman.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
i think you’re at a point you just don’t want to like it no matter how good it is. i’m not wasting my time repeating the same points over and over again
July 20th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Wall•E Plays, go to college. none of the thoughts in this movie are especially deep, high brow, or novel. It’s discussed every semester by 19 yr olds. in first year sociology.
Don’t get me wrong, tdk is not a bad film. just that it pretends to be more than it is, a popcorn flick.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
wall-e is completely different. and showing fat people in the future to imply laziness and reliance on machines isn’t especially deep.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
“dent couldn’t have captured the joker, he died (ceremony in the street). two-face lived on after him. which means people would believe batman captured the joker and he’d be their hero. and there’s no reason to blame the joker when it works in their favor to blame batman.”
But the Joker was captured *before* Dent died. And the public was totally unaware of 2-face or the extent of dent’s scars, so far as the movie showed. Like I said, no matter what, BM and Gordon could have just lied some more, made up whatever fanciful tale they wanted.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
Jerry actually has a good point about how it doesn’t make sense they didn’t pin the deaths on the Joker. There isn’t actually a legitimate argument against it. I, however, am more forgiving than Jerry, because I still loved the movie. The ending felt very right to me, so I can forgive the gap in the logic. Thematically, Batman needed to take them upon himself. Besides, if Nolan had wanted to he probably could’ve invented a reason for why the deaths couldn’t be pinned on the Joker, so who cares? Also, I didn’t think of that when I first saw the film, so it didn’t bother me during the actual viewing experience.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:08 pm
“wall-e is completely different. and showing fat people in the future to imply laziness and reliance on machines isn’t especially deep.”
Not talking to you. Now hush.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
yes, then joker escaped, blew up a hospital, and that’s when public thinks he dies.
last time on this point - dent has to be the perfect hero, batman needs to be the bad guy. that’s what happened, everythings good
Does it depress you, just how alone you really are?
July 20th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
I’m not so sure that Dent could be part of a lie that said he captured the Joker. There were plenty of hostages and swat team members that saw Batman on the scene. Besides, Joker was tied upside down with a cable that smacks of Batman and not a politician. One could say that the swat members were loyal to Gordon and could keep quiet, but the Hostages are under no one’s jurisdiction.
Also, I’m not sure a comment system on a film blog is really worth considering an “adult table”, regardless of the maturity level of the comment maker.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
hahah Jerry no one agrees with you, its cuz youre not making any good points at all. Your just pissing people off that liked the movie for exactly what it was.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Wow dude that is WAY cool.
JT
http://www.FireMe.To/udi
July 20th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
Well, since the original post by David brought in a tiny bit of politics, I’ll add one of the thinga that ran through my mind as far a a comic book movie resonating with reality. (I don’t think the allusions were all that subtle so I’m guessing I won’t be the only one to make this link) I kept thinking about moments when Ledger’s Joker were most unnerving to me and how reactions of those around him were portrayed in the film. And the image that kept recurring is why Bin Laden and 9-11 had an impact beyond the (admittedly huge) direct impact of the attack itself. It was that it seemed to lack any connection to a goal and expectation of working toward some end, however illegitimate. Bin Laden and the rest of Al Quaeda’s place in the American psyche isn’t so different from the Joker, except there’s not as it turns out nearly the same “super” invincibility. But I saw a lot of resonances in the dilemma faced by BM–Joker was all about changing Batman and needed Batman around for his cat and mouse games. Batman was capable of defeating him, but he had to make some choices about his own compass and how to go about fighting the battle.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
i like how the criminals or “law breakers” on the boat chose not to play into the joker’s sadistic game; in contrast to many of the sheepish law-abidding citizens who will gladly go along with any crazy circumstance so as to preserve themselves.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
“dent has to be the perfect hero, batman needs to be the bad guy. that’s what happened, everythings good”
“Has to be” is such a strong phrase. sure you wanna stick with that?
Because all said, and as “BB” echoed above. There is no “has to be” here. Plain and simple, Batman chose to put on that facade of guilt. Not because he had to, but because it’s what turns on the heart light in Batman fanboys. Nolan knows what strings to pull. But like I stated, and has been agreed upon by the majority here, it his quickness to appease the fans left a huge gap in logic in its wake.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I was really expecting to see the boat with the civilians to hit the switch– only to find out that the Joker lied about the detonators. Wouldn’t it have delivered a horrible image if they’d blown themselves up while the criminals lived because they wouldn’t push the button?
Messed up.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
What’s funny is, you mention Anton Chigurh and yet don’t talk about the coin flip that’s both his and Harvey’s trademark. In this respect, the movies are both about the idea of fate vs. free will and also the idea of taking responsibility for your actions (rather than just letting fate take the blame.) I need to see TDK again, but I believe the Joker says more than once that things are inevitable, that the world will inevitably slip into chaos (also a theme from No Country). In the same way that Joker seems to appear magically in places, so does Chigurh, who can conjure (from a magic bag) a shotgun with a silencer.
Obviously when Harvey starts to believe in fate (i.e. that it’s all part of the plan) is also the moment he starts using the coin. He no longer makes decisions for himself, but can lay responsibility on the coin. Thus (that’s right, I said thus!) the ferries not blowing each other up goes towards the idea of taking responsibility for yourself, rather than blaming your ’situation,’ or ‘the plan’. It is a choice that doubles as an attempt to avert or reverse chaos and not just give in to “fate” or the belief that the world is out of your control.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
“i like how the criminals or “law breakers” on the boat chose not to play into the joker’s sadistic game; in contrast to many of the sheepish law-abidding citizens who will gladly go along with any crazy circumstance so as to preserve themselves.”
That’s because it’s fiction. In reality the citizen ship would have been gone in a minute. Because that’s what real life criminals in fact do, prey upon everyday citizens for their own selfish reasons.
Nolan could have had the criminals on the ferry bust into song and dance if he wanted. This wasn’t a documentary.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
“I’m not so sure that Dent could be part of a lie that said he captured the Joker. There were plenty of hostages and swat team members that saw Batman on the scene. Besides, Joker was tied upside down with a cable that smacks of Batman and not a politician.”
Exactly! Yet suddenly, Gordon expects that very same police force who witnessed BM’s capture of Joker to believe that he is public enemy number 1.
Excellent, another plot hole.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
A guy who spells all of his words, of course.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Also, symbology is a word, not a mistake. It means, “symbols collectively.”
It might also be a reference.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
@Jerry
Is picking at plot holes really necessary? While I agree with you that Batman picking up the blame did not necessarily make logical sense, I can forgive it because thematically it was necessary for the story and really, who cares? With a little bit more detail thrown into the story Nolan could have closed that plot hole (while still having Batman take the fall), so why does it really matter?
I also agree with you about the criminals. A boat full of people who steal and murder suddenly don’t want to do it anymore when their own lives are on the line? I particularly liked how Nolan was able to combine large scary black man who intimidates tiny white man and wise black man who teaches the white man into once single double-cliche. The boat segment was pure Hollywood in an otherwise great movie.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Batman: The people need to keep faith in Dent’s legacy. :gruff:
Gordon: But who are we going to pin the death of those officer’s on?
Batman: Me. :gruff:
Gordon: But um, half of my entire force just witnessed you saving hostages and capturing the Joker like ten minutes ago.
Batman: stfu. Just kick you’re speel as I ride off into the sunset on my batpod! :gruff:
Gordon: Batman is our protector, he takes the fall for society, he’s our Dark Knig…..
barf X0
July 20th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
jerry crack corn has no friends… and that is not fiction!
July 20th, 2008 at 7:56 pm
one boat has a bunch of people who committed crimes and got caught. another has a bunch of people who committed crimes and haven’t been caught yet. in reality they could or could not have taken eachother out. but i’m sure the omniscient gods who post in this thread know what’s going on…
July 20th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
It’s not a plot hole. Batman was always under orders for “arrest on sight”, the entire police department didn’t work as swat members, and if Batman was charged with the murders of police officers he would be sought after for arrest.
I sense a lot of antagonism in your posts Mr. J, and at times even the belittling of the comments of others for the sake of defending the insight over this film you claim to have.
I admit, you raised a good point about why Gordon could not have blamed the murders on the Joker, and I think this is worth investigating (maybe not appropriately on comments intended for David Chen’s thematic observations) but why persist to attack the ideas that people raise with insulting tones? It’s one thing to disagree and make a counterpoint, it’s another whole ballgame to act mature while responding to other antagonistic posts.
Maybe if you calmly put your ideas forward and ignored those who didn’t grant you enough respect to do the same, you wouldn’t feel compelled towards victimization.
July 20th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Wow JerryCrack,
you should have written the script, your ending isn’t pointless and forgettable at all.
BARF
July 20th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
it’s a basic dilenma in game theory. and it happens everyday. i admit it was awkward to watch, because the only sure way to to resolve the problem was some kind of signal to the other party of your intentions. this was kind of satisfied by the fact that as more and more time accumulated without a ka-boom, the implication of good will became stronger.
regardless, they joker would still have blown them up at the end no matter what happened.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:00 pm
I only respond “feisty” with those who do so first. Of which there is no shortage of, btw.
Besides, once people start attacking the person and not the ideals, you know they are out of steam. Isn’t that right, brian? lol
July 20th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
“Wow JerryCrack,
you should have written the script, your ending isn’t pointless and forgettable at all.
BARF”
All jokes aside… Sad part was, I basically just paraphrased the actual ending of the movie. Sucks, I know.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I had a lot of these thoughts after I first saw the movie and was trying to comprehend it. I suspect that most of the subtext wasn’t intentional, but is merely a byproduct of telling a great, classic story. And as much as I like The Killing Joke, I’m glad that they stuck with the “mysterious origins” theme for the Joker. He just is.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Also, I know this isn’t the perfect local for discussing my observations, granted. But being as how the other two or so DK threads here are saturated with 500 posts of drooling and blind fanboy praise, figured I’d post here in this thread my on the fence, level headed, unhype skewed thoughts on the movie.
Trust me, these are the things you’ll be asking in like ten years when you can watch the movie out of the context of a multi-million dollar advertisement campaign.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
I watched Zeitgeist just before watching The Dark Night, and it really opened my eyes to the origins of the themes in The Dark Night — and many other things.
Watch it: http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/main.htm
July 20th, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Once again Jerry, you just proved you were attacking ‘Brian’ and not his “ideals” /(ideas?). And you just pulled a giant, hypocritical contradiction in the same post that brought up your code of conduct;
by attacking Brian for ‘running out of steam’ because he was using personal attacks against you, you therefore committed a personal attack on Brian.
I think you should save your ideas for people who will treat them with respect, and not lower yourself to antagonizing comments. Learn to let things go. And with that, I’ve spent enough time on these comments and figure I’ll do something else for a while.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Way to point out my perceived contridictions, but making an entire post which is nothing but focusing on me and not the film or any ideas brought up. lol
July 20th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
actually i made points amidst the personal attacks. it’s not about running out of steam, it’s not wanting to argue the same point countless times to someone who determined hate it anyways. once you actually make a good point i’ll give some respect.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
@ Jerry and BB:
You’re both wrong. It makes perfect sense to have BM take the fall. Yes, they could’ve lied to their teeth further by blaming the Joker for all the murders. Hell, they could’ve said that the Joker orchestrated world hunger and everyone in Gotham would accept that. But as Brian and the others tried so hard to make you realize, they CHOSE not to. Their hands weren’t forced to put the blame on BM. They CHOSE to do so. One of the more overlooked theme is that BM’s antics are getting more admired by the populace to the point that there were a lot of copycats cropping up here and there. It’s also not helping that BM gets the police’s support, what with all the bat-signal and the fact that he can go to crime scenes freely, etc. In the copycats’ minds, “If Batman can do it, why can’t us? And if he’s free to do that, why aren’t we?”
So, why not just make Batman an outcast outright? Legally, they can do it since he’s still technically a vigilante, right? Yes, the can do it without putting Dent’s sins on BM’s shoulders. But simply put, the public won’t support it. They’ll still see BM as their Knight in Shining Armor, something that BM and Gordon realized shouldn’t happen. The last thing they want is the public approving vigilante actions to the point of trusting BM and vigilantes more than the law enforcement and the legal system as a whole. This will certainly put society into chaos as everyone with the strength and power can put matters into their own hands. That was why Harvey was very important, especially in BM’s eyes. By all accounts, Harvey before being corrupted IS the actual hero as he fights crime within the laws that runs our society. BM needs to play the tragic sentinel whose methods everyone should hate but is necessary for the time-being. Harvey’s fall from grace gave them the perfect opportunity to put their realization in practice and seized upon it.
In order for their society to truly function, BM’s actions should be hated by the public so as not to be emulated. Still, all those involved know that BM and the way he does things are absolutely needed until their legal system can get their act together.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
Poch wins
July 20th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
@Poch
I agree with you in the sense that Batman needed to fall from grace for the sake of the theme and story. However, when Batman was telling Gordon to “call it in” the film made every indication that it was to protect the image of Dent, not because the two of them decided Batman needed to fall (Gordon certainly didn’t think Batman needed to). The plot hole is there, but, as I’ve been saying this entire time, you can accept the minor plot hole and realize that it really doesn’t matter. (The film had actual flaws anyway, and a stupid minor plot hole is not one of them).
July 20th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Jerry, you need to watch the film again cause you misinterpreted like EVERYTHING in the movie.
Nuff said.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
the ending was just amazing. It was really unexpected and unconventional.
It’s an open-book ending… like “No Country for Old Men.”
July 20th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
BB
what you described basically accurate but does not put a hole into the plot. they did decide batman needed to fall in order to protect the image of dent. that’s what gordon explained.
on a side note i didn’t notice any flaws with the movie. i’m gonna leave it that way.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
As far as the boat thing is concerned, I thought it was a great example of Game Theory.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Hey Jerry Crack Corn,
I got a bit of a story. Now, I really enjoyed No Country For Old Men. I don’t know why it enthralled me but it did. I actually took offense to people not liking it. (Well, I work in a video store…and when I see people rent Epic Movie and NCFOM at the same time and come back and say that NCFOM sucked ass and Epic movie was “f’ing hilarious”, I know what kind of simple mind they have). Anyways, this one guy comes in and said it sucked cause it was unrealistic. I said OK…explain. He mentioned the fact that Llewellyn went back with a jug of water for the dying man in the truck back at the meet spot. He said, “F*** that! I would a f***in’ just kept the money and gone to Cancun! Nobody would have gone back for that guy!”
It bugged the hell outta me for a while until I realized I encountered a walking, breathing theme of the film in that man. The difference between Llewellyn and Anton, namely those with and without a conscience. Those who could pass a dying man on the road and not think a thing of it, and those who would stop and help.
You seemingly have no conscience. Just in the way you suggest that they throw all the blame on the joker cause “no one would ever know”. I knew what kind of person you were within the first couple sentences of your first post.
Anyways, despite all that, Poch summed up my position on the whole she-bang…
July 20th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
beautifully written. i read the entire thing and actually sat back and thought about it for a while. very thought provoking.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
@ BB:
Yup, but it can also be said that BM has thought of this much earlier than Gordon, as seen throughout the film. Gordon only realized it later why BM chose it that way. Besides, explaining it in the film would’ve created longer (and some may say unnecessary monologues) so it’s left up to interpretation. It may seem as a minor plot hole to some, but I just take it as something left out for the audience to ponder about.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Which is what we are doing. I still don’t understand those getting hurt bottoms because someone seeks to discuss the movie objectively and not partake in an anal polish session.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
“Was anyone else debating this? I need to see the film again to catch all the subtleties, which is for me, the highest praise.”
Batman says he’ll save Rachel and yells to the cops the address the Joker told him was for Harvey minutes before. The Joker switched the addresses.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
@ Aaron,
Yes, it’s also disturbing to know that some people actually agree that the more realistic approach is for the two boats to kill each other for survival. While the film presents the worst in people, Nolan also want to portray that people are not morally black or white in the absolute sense. To not acknowledge that people, even criminals, can change for the better shows how lowly of a person one really is.
EVERYBODY has the capacity for good, as much as everyone has the capacity to do evil. And that is FACT, not fiction.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
“In order for their society to truly function, BM’s actions should be hated by the public so as not to be emulated.”
Not really true.
Out of the what, 30 odd million mentioned to be part of the Gotham populace, we saw, what……3 people dressed like Batman emulating him.
Making BM a hunted fugitive by Gordon and breaking all of his ties to justice seemed awful heavy handed to stop like two guys in black hockey gear. I don’t buy it.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Like BB said, the decision to implicate BM was clearly to protect Dent’s name.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
@ Poch
A boat full of people who have murdered, stole, and whatever else are ALL suddenly reformed when put in a situation where their own lives are on the line? The regular citizens being unable to pull the trigger is believable — the criminals, not so much. There was a literal boatload of them; there had to have been at least one bad seed in there who would’ve been willing to do it.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:34 pm
“Nolan also want to portray that people are not morally black or white in the absolute sense. To not acknowledge that people, even criminals, can change for the better shows how lowly of a person one really is.
EVERYBODY has the capacity for good, as much as everyone has the capacity to do evil.”
What are we like 5? I would expect a “masterpiece” to be a bit deeper than an after school special.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Again, come back to reality, people. Even by your own examples now, this was nothing but a popcorn flick.
July 20th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
You can’t say that absolute retribution was the point of TDK, if it was Joker would be dead. Batman couldn’t break his own code, a morale one at that. But guess it also depends on absolute retribution as well
July 20th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
So, should we discuss how bad and wooden Bale was? I can’t help but notice a marked absence of props going his way for his portrayal of Batman this time around. lol
July 20th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
@ Jerry:
Yes, but wasn’t it said that they were like the fourth one in like a certain time frame? It means that it’s getting rampant and it’s growing.
Also, you still seem to not appreciate how important Dent’s name is. Read my post again, it’s there. Yes, it’s absolutely necessary to sever BM’s association to justice, even if it’s just for the public’s eyes. Yes, it is absolutely necessary to protect Dent’s status quo.
Here, to put it into a much better perspective:
No one is above or outside the law. The fact that Batman works outside the law and the populace loves him for it would actually be quite disturbing, even in the real-world sense. Think about it: do you want vigilantes running rampant w