"Since the topic of fallicies was brought up, there was a bit of ad hominem in your argument as well. You pretty much stated that nothing I said was legitiment because I used the wrong form of there/their, which in my defense was an honest mistake and holds no bearing on my overall intelligence."

Incorrect. I said that your argument wasn't legitimate because it rested on an ad hominem fallacy, and provided the primary example. No argument based on a fallacy is valid...and there's really no way to get around that. Your additional list of fallacies, by the way, seems more or less accurate, but I didn't feel the need to note them the first time -- why pile on?

THEN, in addition, I took you to task for using the wrong homonym. I agree that this by itself "holds no bearing on your overall intelligence"...I wouldn't question it based on such a small sample of your thought. My sole point was, and is, that when you are busy calling the "retarded" beliefs of others into question, it would help people take you more seriously if you had everything spelled correctly. Please consider that comment extended to your last post as well.

Now, let's see what we have here. You continue to make the groundless claim that those who would see information about a future film with the title of "Red State," based on a controversial Kansas preacher who is (wrongly, in my opinion) associated with the political right, which the author claims will be a political horror movie, are wrong to conclude that the film will be generally hostile to conservatives. With all due respect, there's no serious defense of that position available to you. You also advance a straw man, in the form of saying that people seem to be solely angered by the title (when in truth, I think it's the title plus the basic plot description that has conservatives up in arms). And then there's the claim that your "demeanor is strictly diplomatic in nature," which seems belied by the whole "there views are retarded" bit from a few posts up -- and by the way, if you respect my beliefs and the beliefs of those like me, calling them retarded is a funny way to show it.

Hmm. Well, enough chatting with you. I must go get ready for the Super Bowl. It promises to be more entertaining than carping on Kevin Smith.

Well played sir/madame, this has been informative. I admit the statement I originally made was better applied to me as opposed to who it was directed, but I must say it was entertaining for me to try to justify it. As you stated there are more entertaining things to do, well not for me really for I have two feet of snow to remove from my driveway. I hope you enjoyed the Superbowl and I also hope my antics didn't leave too bad of a taste in your mouth.

Sincerely,
The hopeless debater

not once did i hear kevin say that this was a movie about republicans. dude, switch to decaff. :)

no but republicans see "red state" and automatically assume. it's kind of like people in the mid 20th century associating the color red with communism. they know that there views are retarded and since they have no real argument to back up their ideals they get mad and yell about stuff that is not relevant.

Kevin Smith's choice of title was clearly meant to provoke (else, why choose a title with such associtional baggage?), and it's hard to believe he doesn't intend this movie to be at least a general shot at the political right. Given the information we have at the moment, there simply is no other legitimate point of view. I find it a bit sad that you think there is.

Since you're the one advancing ad hominem arguments ("they know that there [sic] views are retarded," etc.), you're the one who has no legitimate argument. It would also be greatly appreciated if you would learn to distinguish the word "there," indicating a location, and the word "their," indicating a possessive relation. Making such an obvious mistake doesn't give your other-directed charges of retardation much weight.

I admit that last comment wasn't worded to perfection, my whole point though, in reference to my hasty generalization of republicans, was that to me it's dumb to get in an uproar over the title of a movie that hasn't been released and that no one really knows anything about. I get what you are saying about the ad hominem argument but in my mind I associated the concept of people seeing red and automatically linking it with communism, to people seeing the title to a fictional movie called "Red State" and automatically assuming it refers to all Republicans or all Republican states without further investigation. Kevin obviously has a problem with certain Republican ideals or probably all of them and I don't agree with the the fact that he isn't using social commentary in his art to criticize their Democratic couterparts as well. As a side note, both parties, in my opinion, have positive and negative views on certain issues (neither party is completely correct all the time) but the fact remains that we havn't seen the film so the title, although extremely suggestive I must admit, could hold a more significant meaning when taken in context with the film itself. We must keep in mind that, although loosely based around actual events in my opinion, it is in fact a work of fiction.

You mentioned ad hominem but there was also a taste of bandwagon appeal (partially because I am looking for some sort of entertainment for I am snowed in and bored at the moment), hasty generalization, and probably some non sequitur. Truthfully I could care less, everything I've said in here has been for the sake of debate because, like I said before, I'm bored.

Since the topic of fallicies was brought up, there was a bit of ad hominem in your argument as well. You pretty much stated that nothing I said was legitiment because I used the wrong form of there/their, which in my defense was an honest mistake and holds no bearing on my overall intelligence.

For reference sake there is no hostile intent in anything I've posted. My demeanor is strictly diplomatic in nature, and I appologize if I've come off as anything other than that. I'm not trying to get all heated over this so I guess this is a kind of disclaimer. We have a difference of opinion which we are both entitled to, believe it or not I respect yours and only want the same in return.

If I've missed anything I'm sorry but the girlfriend is yelling at me to stop playin on the computer.

14. Yes, my shit stinks, but unlike you - I flush it away because I see that it is waste. You and your kind share your shit with everyone else like ti is a fucking trophy.

15. Lastly - I would take a bullet to protect your rights and freedom - but I do wish you would just shut up, go away and let the grown ups run the show for awhile. I feel the pain of needing to protect your right to vote, speak and be involved in the running of this country. BUT - know in your heart - no matter how wrong I think you are - I would stand in the line of fire so that you could go on vomiting out your inane chatter....it makes me both proud and very, very sad.

9. Now who is the extreme? You would suggest revoking my right to work and putting my patients at risk because of my views? Funny - you people always show your true self when backed into a corner. You insult me and say I should give up helping people for suggesting you would be happier in another country - it is really so easy to push you into saying something stupid.

10. "women libbers" lol - yes, please minimize people fighting for human rights. I guess if you had your way - we could get them damn chicks back in the kitchen.

11. Palin was not a fellow women - that is insulting to women. She has proven to be dishonest, dumb as a rock and maybe even criminal. People did not like her because she was not qualified at best - not because she was female. IN FACT - she was an insult to women - What the GOP was "saying" was - we need us a hot chick because thats all women are good for. If they were serious - their are many qualified GOP women that they could have selected. Hillary - what can I say, I wanted her but she could have never won - to many people HATE her (mostly GOP).

12. So, you don't hate but you do detest me. Detest - def. to feel abhorrence of; hate; dislike intensely. It is called a dictionary - buy one. Your hatred of me does not bother me, I'm sure I would have been hated by, Hitler, W, Rush, Bill O and most other right wing fascists.

13. "many have left" really? is that why Obama was elected, because "they left"? You wish that was true - it just isn't. I'm sorry. I would like a moderate government - but we need years of far left to correct that nightmare that was ronnie ray gun, bush 1 and W. Maybe after 10-20 years we can meet in the middle but not now, not yet.

5. Same old "media is left" crap. Well it is True...yes I admit , most main stream media is left. Because - the right has a long track record of shutting down media and trying to control media. See - Howard Stern. He was just fine until he started disagreeing with Bush - then shows he did 10 years ago started being fined. Funny - when he was pro Bush - he was fine - when he disagreed, FINES until he was driven off free radio. AND FYI - the media follows the money, more people are left of center so more money is spent of left of center programing. This is not a right country.

6."...how stupid him and his friend are" if you hate Kevin Smith, why are you here? Also - most of his films are brilliant! But - you do need the ability to look past the surface. Clerks - The fear that most young men feel at 22. Afraid to "go for it" for fear of failing and not being able to get back what they have lost. Chasing Amy - at 23 most men are dating women that have far more sexual experience then their male counterparts - and it is HARD to deal with - but in the end, love is what is important - not sex. Dogma - The beauty and faults of religion as seen by Kevin. Clerks 2 - over coming the fear of "going for it." Zac and mire - Love not sex. WOW, that Kevin is and evil fucker - how dare he suggest that fear and sex are problems and love and kindness should win out in the end - and he made me laugh along the way. It is so sad that all you can see are the slap stick elements of movies that have much more to say if only you would listen.

7. They look down on you - not us. We look down on you because you are a sad echo of our collective past. The left over 50's mentality that wanted so badly not to see the problems, that wanted to push all the ugly in to a closet and live the pollyanna. Now you want to live in the comfortable fear that is feed to you by your leadership. I look down because you are told what to think and can't (or don't want ) to think for yourself. On the bright side - your point of view is fading, your numbers are declining and we will be free of your kind in the near future.

8. I have said nothing against any race or sex. Well, wait - that is not all true - you could say that I insulted white, middle class, right wing, conservative, southern (maybe midwestern), christian extremists. Well, being white and from the south-midwest - born of a truly redneck family - feel that I have every right to comment on what might be best described as "my people."

WOW - "Intolerant" You have basically proven, you can't read.

1. I did not attack "everyone else" Just people like you, the minority party, the minority point of view, the part of America that is fading away.

2. Yes - I am the face of the future. We have lost tolerance for your point of view. I'm sorry - I tried for years to be tolerant and all it got me was 8 years of the worst white house ever. It is time for the blue states to stop taking your crap and end your insane 20 year rule.

3. I did not say I wanted to harm anyone. Have a friend read my post out loud for you and explain the big words. I truly feel that you would be happier in a country with a theocracy. Since we (against theocracy) out number you - you should move. If you out numbered us - I would offer to move. I do not want to kill anyone and I have nothing against religious states - I just do not want to live in one.

4. "Kevin Smith is a puppet of the far left" are you kidding? dick and fart jokes are left? Dogma at its core is very pro religion basically admitting that christian/bible mythology is true and god is very kind and loving. Not very "left" point of view.

In response to #4 alone...mainly because I don't have time to read through a fifteen-point manifesto: You seem to be equating political leftism with atheism. I know quite a few progressive theists, and a couple conservative atheists, who would be quite offended by this blatantly false reduction. I normally would be too, except that in your case I find myself more amused than anything. I mean...you said this in the middle of smacking someone else down for being ignorant. It almost makes me want to sift through the rest of what you have here. Who knows what other nuggets of misinformation and bad logic are just waiting to be mined? Hmm. Perhaps in a few days...

Sexist??LOL it was Obama and Olbermann and the rest of their ilk like you that really showed how SEXIST people could be- What is funny was that i wasn't only the MEN that were Extremely SEXIST towards Hillary or Palin,,,IT was many of the FAKE HYPOCRITICAL women libbers(and quite a bunch of racist bigots) that spewed vile hatred towards their fellow women. Disgusting!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't have hatred like you towards people that don't agree with me I just detest vile ignorant intolerant douchebags like you!!! There are moderate and even conservative Democrats out there.not many left because the party has gone to the far left extreme and pushed out most common sense people I do not really know too many BIBLE thumpers(extreme Republicans) butI sure as hell know tonnss of Hard Core Liberals(Extreme hateful intolerant fools thsat think because they call themselves liberal or democrat that they can do no wrong and their shit don't stink) YES your shit stinks DrWild.. You give a bad name not only to Democrats but to the human race as a whole.

See Below

You want to kill people and rape them and kick them out of the country because they don't agree with your extremist views. The rest of the people just wish You extremists could move more to the middle and stop hating and using the MEDIA(which is far left like you) to spred your propoganda. I agree that Kevin Smith has become a puppet over the last 10 years for the far left wackos. He used to just show how crazy people can act and how stupid him and his friends were.Now it is far more Propaganda for the FAR LEFT EXTREMISM that his riches in Hollywood have filled him with He no longer has touch with what is real in the world.How could he? Him and all his friends live in a Wonderland and look down on the rest of humanity with distain the same as DRwilds(lol if you are a doctor your license needs to be revoked because you sir or madam are a racist bigot!!!I am sure you treat people the same way or worse in your personal life.

Wow a hate mongering douchebag DrwildsYou are typical of the far leftSlandering anyone that disagrees with you.You are the HATEMONGERERSJust look at how much hate you had in your attacks of everyone else.This unfortunately is the typical attitude of the current Demoncratic PartyTheir are not many moderate Demoncratics leftThey are braindead followers like you that hate everyone.YOU are the current face of your Party douchebag.

Does anyone else remember when conservatives weren't a bunch of crybabies? It's a movie. Boo-hoo. Get your panties unwadded and sack the f*ck up.

I LOVE the fact that people are getting all worked up over a movie that has not even come out!

I am a little shocked - I would think that hating fags, worshiping a fake book with made up stories, burning crosses, electing the brain dead and fucking your sheep, cutting taxes and skipping your dental appointments would keep you busy?

I sure wish your SisterAunt would get home from her Young American Nazi Party knitting circle and stop your UncleDad from banging your ass - then you wouldn't be so upset about a movie that is going to shed some light on what a bunch of all American Assholes you are.

Current conservative republicans are neither conservative or republicans! What you are - Evil, full of hate, racist, sexist, bullying monsters. I for one am glad your rule is OVER!

Trust me - WE will be better to you then you were to US. BUT - you do not deserve it. You deserve to be sent to a country that is run the way you would run it - IRAN sounds good. Run by a crazy asshole that uses GOD as his excuse to kill, torture, rob and threaten freedom around the globe.

So, please feel free to protest Red State by getting the fuck out of the USA and head for Iran where you will be much happier.

Everyone here needs to get a life and quit trying to enforce your opinions on everyone else, so in the manner which is custom: get away from the computer screen you fucking assholes!!!

I consider myself a Libertarian, not a Republican.

It's obvious from Kevin's quotes that he is using the pun in the title to say that this Phelps-like character is Republican and that this movie is about how scary religious conservatives are. I am not a religious person by any stretch of the imagination, but I'm disappointed in Kevin for taking a cheap shot at "Red States" as if Republicans approve of, or even empower, monsters like Phelps.

In my opinion, he was pretty nonpartisan until his extremely liberal wife brainwashed him. Now he's typical Hollywood. This is the kind of stuff that makes informed independents roll their eyes enough to be turned off of the left.

how about you all just wait for the film and let it speak for itself, instead of jumping to conclusions on something you didn't write yourself. Perhaps if you disagree so much you tell your story and/or opinion, it's the way voicing film, writing and well anything that deals with art goes, critism; but atleast watch the flick before you make up your mind that you hate it. I could be wrong by thinking that it could be interesting to see what smith has to say.

Kevin Smith is a liberal do-uche bag. He has an intense hatred for America and white men (he has written about this). Phelps is a crazy moron to be sure, but how about a movie about a moron liberal do-uche director who hates white people? He'd sure have the inspiration...

Just as a side point, although Phelps is a registered capital 'd' Democrat, the fact that he thinks your country should be administrated with deference to the Bible politically aligns him with theocracy, IMO.

What makes you think i don't know what the term Red State means? My point is that in this context there's every chance it's just a play on words, not an early warning sign that Smith is about to defame Republicans. On that basis, I don't think there's any pressing need for GOPsters to jump to attention. I also never claimed that the movie wouldn't have political content, in fact I said quite the opposite - "[the movie title's play on words has] a vague notion of partisanship that relates to the subject matter" - with emphasis on those last two words. So your claim that I denied the film would have political commentary is either poor reading comprehension on your part, or your using an ignoratio elenchi argument to try and undercut me.

To recap, 1. Yes, the film will have political commentary, but
2. The fact that the film is called 'Red State' may well just be an innocuous play on words, rather than a cue that the film will target Republican politics specifically. Even if I turn out to be wrong on that point, don't you think it's futile trying to call Smith on defamation on the basis of hypothesis?

Rufus & Blusko:

We just don't know what Smith has in mind, obviously. But having said that we can go on what he specifically has stated:
(1) The movie will be called "Red State" and everyone knows (except for the two of you) that Red State is a term for Republican-leaning states. That's a fact and nothing that either of you states changes that fact.
(2) Smith has stated that the movie will be openly political so both of your pleas that the movie will not be political is simply nonsense. Your silly statements directly contradict what Smith himself has already stated.
(3) He has stated that the main character of the horror movie will be a character "inspired" by Fred Phelps--who is a Democrat, not a Republican. Phelps is an insane moronic Democrat, but a Democrat nonetheless. Also, ALL of Phelps brain-dead, cult-like family members are card-carrying members of the Democratic Party and ALL are activists in the Democratic Party and have been for many, many years.

I have been making the simple point that if Smith attempts to libel the Republicans of Kansas by making a film that depicts Republicans to be, in any way, similar to the Fred Phelps and his brain-dead family members then I, Michael Jackson--washed up star of Thriller--is going to call Smith to the carpet early and often as a fat liar because if he does that then is making up a false situation just to score petty political points on behalf of the Democrats. If he creates a generic (neither Republican or Democrat) scary politican/horror lead character then he is being a real film maker instead of a political propaganda hack.

I hope he creates an interesting and scary movie that is critical of low-lifes like Phelps, but if he creates a political movie that attacks Republicans and attempts to paint all Republicans as clones of the nasty Democrats like Phelps then will have created nothing more than second rate, political prpaganda and he will have lower himself into hack territory, which is far beneath him and his talent.

Michael Jackson

"You did not respond directly to the fact that the movie is named “Red State” which we all know implies Republican." Does that mean it's actually going to be about Republican politics? I took it as just a play on words that combined traditional horror images (you know, red, like blood) with a vague notion of partisanship that relates to the subject matter. If Smith wanted to make a film that dealt with depression amongst political polemicists, and called the film 'Blue State', would you instantly assume he was attacking democrats? We all know the phrase 'black sheep' implies a misfit, but the New Zealand film with that title was a horror about GM flesh-eating ovines. In short, it's just a title and you're giving it way more weight than it deserves.


“The movie’s called ‘Red State’ and it’s very much about that subject matter, that point of view and that position taken to the absolute extreme." - I took the 'that' he talks about as referring to the prejudices of Phelps and his ilk. It didn't cross my mind for a second that it would be showcase for any misconceptions he might have about Republicans.

Oh, horse crap, Rufus! There is NO hate exhibited above. There are comments that you don't agree with, there are comments that hurt your little feelings about your hero. There are facts that get in the way of your point of view, but there is no hate above. You just don't like what I wrote. You should be embarassed by your simple-minded response to my comments. You didn't respond directly to FACT that Phelps is a Democrat. You did not respond directly to the fact that the movie is named "Red State" which we all know implies Republican. You did not respond to these facts because you do have a coherent respond to these facts. All you did was call name, "You are a hate-monger" which is childish and silly argument. I will wait and see what Smith actually produces, but the FACT that he has named the movie "Red State" indicates that he going to attempt to blame Republicans and Republican red states such as Kansas for the hatred exhibited by a du*****s Democrat. Phelps is one of Smith's party and no more how much political propaganda that he attempts to throw out there is he going to get anyone--except brain-dead liberals--to believe that Phelps is the product of the Republicans. I will go over again for your simple-minded as****, Phelps is a Democrat and Phelps has been a Democrat for his whole life. Phelps and all of his brain-dead children are Democrats and no matter how many times you or flawed hero, Smith, attempt to paint Phelps as a Republican he is not one. So get a life.

Wow, such hate and ignorance in one place. Almost makes me ashamed to be a registered republican. For you two hatemongers slinging crap at the big Kev, he dosen't want or need your support. The problem with the republican party right now is that there are too many people like you that think everything is a plot against us. The world has changed alot in the last 50 years get over it.

This movie will probably not be an outright attack on the republican party as much as an attack on out dated quick to judge thinking that you two have proven to be more than just a stereo type. If you want to go after a film maker go after that pompus a** Michael Moore who poses as a documentarian and does a butcher job on the republican party and any type of consevatism every chance he gets. To make it worse people actually believe the crap that he puts out. Ask most people about Kevin Smith and they will tell you that he is the guy that makes those movies full of dick and fart jokes. Lighten up it's just a movie that no one has seen yet. Why don't you wait till you have a frame of referance before you start going after someone.

Kevin Smith is a fat d****. He is going to write Red State as if Fred Phelps speaks for right-wing Republicans, but he will be wrong. Phelps is a lifelong Democrat and he is an old civil rights lawyer. He has run for office as a Democrat five times. All of the f***** up family members are Democrats. His son, Fred Phelps, Jr., was in charge of the Al Gore for President campaign in Kansas in 1988. There are pictures of Gore and and that d***** Tipper standing arm in arm with Fred Phelps, Jr. and Jr.'s brain-dead wife.

All of the Phelps are f***** in the brain and need to get lives. Kevin Smith is just a plain ole d*****. A pox on both of their houses.

I can see that Smith is going to write a simple-minded tale that Phelps was created by the right-wing Republicans under the Nazi flag of Bush, but Phelps has been acting like a pile of s**** for over 40 years and he does not speak for not one Republican. He only speaks for old fashioned southern Democrats like Robert Byrd because that is what he is. Phelps was born and raised in Meridian, Mississippi and he learned his narrow-minded, ignorant ways while being raised as a good ole boy white racist Democrat from Mississippi. But I will guarantee you that Smith will portray Phelps as a right-wing Republican from Kansas.

He is Democrat and always will be. All of his cult-like family members are Democrats also. But Smith will not portray those facts. Count on it.

Jack, the irony of you complaining about 'liberal tolerance' than saying that Smith is trying to label every Republican voting state as extremist is glaring.

You're an over-sensitive child, and you can't stand people disagreeing with your "extremely "right wing conservative" viewpoint.

Kevin Smith is not an idiot, and he's not an touchy douchebag. Let the film come out before you judge him and especially the film.

@Jack

It's not like he cares about you since you're not the target audience.

The target audience are NOT liberals or conservatives. The target audience are NORMAL PEOPLE. The people who care NOT about taking sides. The kind who don't care about applying their conservative/liberal beliefs. Besides, why should you care? He's not making fun of YOU or your kind. He's mocking Fred Phelps. The only REAL reason you'd be insulted about this movie is if you're a supporter of Fred Phelps in the first place. Or Fred Phelps in person.

Oh, and you're looking into the "red State" thing a little too much. "Red" could also refer to the colour of blood, since it IS a slasher film.

Wow, I can't wait for this teatament to liberal tolerance to fail as miserably at the box office as the current crop of anti-war-at-any-cost films. Will Hollywierd ever learn that pissing off half your potential customer base (by the association of "red state = extremist") is not good business. Let him piss away his investor's money for his own vanity.

Just for the record, I'm extremely "right wing conservative" in my political views, and I ABHORE Fred Phelps and his disgusting "church" of hate. He's a despicable person and I resent Kevin Smith deeply for daring to lump me and more than a hundred million other good, decent people into the same group as this monster.

And just for the record, Clerks wasn't a great film. It was juvenile, foolish and pointless.

You are an illiterate, ignorant, douche. When you criticize something, at least have the decency to spell check first. Your arguments might be a little more credible. As a side-note, is there an original idea in your head at all? To be an extreme right or left anything says you just parrot out what people tell you to parrot. Most normal people aren't completely right or left; they have some conservative and some liberal views based on personal experiences, and while they may have more conservative or more liberal, thus classifying them as one or the other, people with thoughts of their own are never solely one way or the other.

Also, don't hate something before you've even seen it. Once you have, then you can have an opinion on it. Rational people realize it is impossible to really have a true opinion on anything without first having experienced it. For all you know, you might actually like this movie, but it sounds like you are too close-minded to ever even give it a chance.

And attacking Clerks at the end was, as you put it, 'juvenile, foolish, and pointless.' If you didn't like that film, fine. You're entitled to that opinion. But a lot of directors have made successful films that were well liked and then have the occassional one that the same people don't like. Just because you didn't like Clerks, don't automatically write off Red State.

The fact that call yourself an extremely right wing conservative is horrible in and of itself. NOT because you are a conservative, but becasue extreme anything is horrible, there is a time to be conservative and a time to be liberal. You are taking a severely negative stance against kevin and his film, which hasn't even been released yet, let alone written in full. and you bash his first film why? because you feel that you and your views are being attacked? You got angry at someone you don't know, enough so to criticize their lively hood, a successful one at that, I might add. In a way you are the same as fred phelps and his followers because you allowed yourself become hostile over someones opposing views, which weren't even directed at you specifically. Granted you have the right to whatever opinion you want this is america after all, and so does he, but I feel you are taking this way to much to heart. it's a fictional film that reflects his views on extreme behavior, and I'm sorry but I think your little outburst there is a little extreme, not to mention juvenile, foolish and pointless, especially considering my early statement that the film isn't even out yet!