Please don't let Dan Trachtenberg talk so long without calling him on his hyperbolic congratulatory BS. I was very close to stabbing my ear with an ice pick so I would stop hearing his voice and ridiculous ramblings.

I think Avatar proved that Cameron is the man to make blockbusters from now on (Michael Bay, McG and Roland Emmerich can stop now). It's solidly entertaining with a nice dose of conscience. I can easily excuse the lameness of some of the script: It's a James Cameron film! What did you expect!?!

And one more note for Dan Trachtenberg: Let go of Star Wars. Comparing everything to Star Wars is not helping your intellect.

Y'know, its been bugging me but I should say it while it is still fresh in my mind. Avatar took 10+ years to make? That story was what James Cameron had to wait for technology to catch up to? Get the fuck outta here. District 9 did such a better job with the same basic story and themes. Honestly, put those movies side by side and it should become clear to anyone with a brain that District 9 was the greater accomplishment and the better movie. They worked with less but created so much more.

Also, everything about Avatar was either exposition or no explanation of anything. How the fuck did they enter the Avatars? How the hell do the USB/hair cords work? Why are the mountains floating? Why are there lizards that spin around in circles? Why the fuck does everything glow? Why the hell do we need (eh hem) Unobtainium? Bullshit. I can get over the movie being preachy and patronizing. Lots of good movies have "messages", but when you're taking messages that have been done already and doing a shittier job, then I got problems. Hey let me take the same exact story structure as Dances with Wolves, Pochahontas, The Last Samurai, Princess Mononoke, and the Matrix. That's only the ones I can think of.

Yeah the visuals are "groundbreaking" Big Fucking Deal! If everything else sucks who gives a shit? That's another thing. Everyone is making a huge deal about this new detailed CGI. Guess what? It's still CGI! It looks like CGI, it smells like CGI, it tastes like CGI. Then it must be fucking CGI! You're not going to trick me into thinking it's real. What the hell is your objective? Fuck off! I actually didn't hate all of it. The Colonel is bad ass and is awesomely evil. Ribisi has some great lines and the end battle is pretty cool. Honestly that was it.

Maybe I have an awful brain that doesn't appreciate immense amounts of CGI and simplistic, overdone, preachy storytelling. I must admit, I was fooled for a while into thinking I enjoyed it but after I smacked my head against the toilet seat while hanging up a clock, I came to my senses. Oh, and the fact that this shit is nominated for anything is not very surprising because awards really are for the most part, bullshit and are more times incorrect than correct. If it wins anything I will be angry but again not surprised. Okay I'm done. (Sorry abut the excessive amount of cussing.) Happy Holidays and Happy New Year!

thanks guys for the awesome xmas present! and with my man-crush mr trachtenberg no less. thank you so much for just being there

Hi David Chen, I gotta say I agree with your opinions of the film.

Though Avatar was visceral in its visual presentation, often rekindling classic film moments such as Jurassic Park in it's depiction of a realistic, Utopian fantasy world down to the intricate details in flora and fauna, the story fell a little flat for me, and like you say, dramatic moments weren't given room to breathe. Though you have listed a few examples; *SPOILER ALERT" ..... I list one in which Jake Sully's acceptance into the Navi community happened so quickly you never really feel their tension and skepticism towards him.

One thing that I kinda hope you guys would talk about was Jake's paraplegic condition. In the Navi scenes, James Cameron brilliantly crafted a sense of wonder and joy being in this fantasy world, that everytime you were taken back into the human world, you just wanted to get back to the Navi. Like many of the glossed over subplots in this film, I would have liked to see a little more of Jake Sully's struggles to contemplate life in a handicapped body and finding freedom in his Avatar.

Lastly, *SPOILER ALERT* again.... I thought the placement of the Turok Makdour red dragon capture in the film was a little weird. Wouldn't it have been better if it was placed in the final battle showdown, and him conquering the red dragon to fight off the humans be seen as a symbolic transformation of the character rising to become "The Chosen One" and reignite the Navi spirit to fight back after they've suffered severe losses?

Avatar is a good film, had great concepts and ideas but in my opinion, never really followed through. It's entertaining, but its not a classic. Definitely one of Cameron's weaker films.

Regarding the whole Avatar vs District 9, I gotta side with the latter. Not only did District 9 felt original, it was compelling and I'd dare say the final sequence of that film was amazing; both for technical merits as well as being a solid, emotionally driven action set piece. This, an inspired vision and a $30 million budget puts District 9 above Avatar for me.

Let's hope Avatar 2 does something a little different.

this reminds me of the man who wins the lottery and complains about the color of the check.

What I don't understand is this 'turn your brain' off debate sweeping the net lately. It's not about turning your brain off, it's about enjoying a movie despite its flaws. Are you going to tell me that this is unacceptable? That critics don't enjoy movies that are flawed, sometimes deeply? That my friends, is quite frankly bullshit. I enjoyed Avatar and I know it's got flaws in its storytelling (maybe alleviated by the director's cut which WILL be coming, they had profit on their minds so had to shorten the film for maximum viewings)

Turning your brain 'off' IS retarded, but that is not what's going on with this movie. Most people walk away acknowledging the flaws of the movie, sometimes grudgingly as if they owe Cameron. But right now simply liking or loving this movie is asking to be attacked by some critics as if we turned into mouthbreathers.

Star Trek has a story that makes no sense whatsoever, yet it gets a pass because of the acting. Avatar has a story told in gigantic broadstrokes, yet it should get a pass because of its direction. Either way, both movies were enjoyable despite their horrendous screenplays written by people who needed to redraft badly and probably get ghostwritten in the process.

I'd go even further and say that Star Trek's plot was worse because of the massive plot holes. At least the structure of Avatar's screenplay made sense within the world it established. But you're dead right that Star Trek gets a pass from alot of people because of the performances and character moments, and that's because it's the number one thing audiences engage with. That's where emotion comes from, from engaging character interactions, and the plot can lurch and stumble a few times as long as the audience is on board with the people/aliens/beasts they're watching.

The problem many people are having with Avatar is that they're finding the characters and their relationships flatter than what's expected from a blockbuster movie. They express it as "the story is unoriginal so the film is dumb" but as Dan pointed out the reason the unoriginal story is bugging them is because the characters aren't reaching out and grabbing them. An unoriginal story is not the real problem, the telling of that story is. Audiences will go with a Heroes Journey film as long as they find charm in the characters and many are just not finding a whole lot of it in Jake and co (with the oft-mentioned exception of Saldana's Ney'tiri).

No critic should give weaknesses in a movie a pass simply because another part works beyond the call of duty, and don't be one of those ridiculous fucks who thinks that Dave and Adam didn't enjoy the film just because they pointed out the underwhelming telling of the story. They both said (multiple times, trying to avoid this kind of myopic misunderstanding) that overall the movie gets a thumbs up and they liked it. And I agree with them, it's goofy and clumsy in its telling but it's a hell of a lot of fun to sit in front of and experience.

What's funny is how many people condemn other movies/directors for style > substance and then turn right around praising Avatar and touting it as the greatest movie ever made. Just for clarification I'm not talking about Transformers or anything like that. Those movies were badly made on top of being shallow.

Yeah, totally agree. I didn´t expect much substance from Avatar, but I didn´t think it would lack so much in character development and depth. I mean the guy has made Aliens with some of the most memorable characters and even 10 minutes of T2 had more character work than all of Avatar. In the end I don´t think Avatar will last with repeat viewings.

Thank you David and Adam for pulling a more grounded view to the podcast. Dan should know better than say all the crap he did. This movie may look beautiful but the story, characters, and dialog do not hold up to any standard.

I love how people are bitching about them criticizing Avatar. They had a couple problems with the movie. It wasn't Adams favorite movie of the year. But they all liked it a lot.

Suddenly that's not enough? Everyone has to think the movie is flawless?

Thank you for summing up my thoughts precisely.

it is strange that a smaller movie like Naked Lunch that focuses on style over story it is praised and a big film like Avatar is criticized. They are both auteur films so I don't think the studios influenced these decisions. Look at Godards Breathless or Alphaville or any Jarmusch movie. Lx

Love the show guys, keep it up...

but could someone please tell Devindra to stop saying dug or dig it? I dont know why but it really annoys me. And he says it A LOT

Two words to sum up Avatar: Predictable and forgettable. I´m not talking about the story, I´m talking about the action, the set pieces and the final battle; eveything that I had hoped would blow me away. Instead it was mediocre at best. After Avatar I´m convinced Cameron has become old school in a bad way. I had heard that the final AMP suit vs Navi battle would be awesome. Instead it was over before it had started.

Cameron hyped up the humans vs Navi battle as the mother of all battles. It lasted for 20 minutes and was very unsatisfying. There was no sense of geography, no strategy at all. The humans just flew into the trap and were attacked by the navis, that was kinda cool, but again there was no real tension. There were a couple of cool moments, like the Leonopteryx grabbing a chopper with it´s legs and throwing it away at another. But again those moments of originality were very rare. The thanator with Neyteri on top of it attacking the AMP suit was cool but didn´t last very long. What surprised me the most was how fast Cameron edited all his action at the end. Lots of short cuts of gunships blowing up and critters colliding with gunships. Sometimes he used his trademark slow motion and then it felt not right at the moment.

What is left if the action wasn´t as cool as expected. The story, characters, 3D and cgi. There was no story and no characters. The only thing left then is the cgi and 3d which were both great. From now on I don´t want to see a 2D movie. I just wish that I had been blown away by Avatar as a movie, not as a 3D experience.

Some critics have compared it to Peter Jacksons LOTR trilogy. Only thing I can say: WTF have you been smoking while watching Avatar? I had high hopes that Avatar would measure up to the LOTR movies when it came to the final battle and that it would be comparable to the battle of the Pelennor fields. It didn´t even come close. In ROTK there were many stages in the battle, there were new enemies showing up and new allies who then showed up and saved the day.

Some would argue, it was the first movie in a trilogy. Well that is fine. But then the final battle in Star Wars and the destruction of the first Death Star was more epic than anything in Avatar.

OMG you guys have to seriously cut that Dan guy off....STOP RAMBLING, jesus.....

Haha, I like Dan but he does need to be marshalled a little better, his enthusiasm gets in the way of making good radio at times. I love his passion but it sometimes overtakes his ability to remain comprehensible and coherent, and if someone like me, who enjoys him, was thinking "Ok Dan, time to shut up now," as he rabbited on and on and on at the start of the Avatar section ... I think it says something.

I was almost praying for Dave to wrestle the helm back from him as the whole SS /filmcast floundered and washed onto the Rocks Of Annoyance. Be strong with guests when they've derailed the show Admiral Chen, your audience will love you even more for it.

Great show! Loved the movie but I completely agree with Dave and Adam for harping on the characters and dialogue. I have to say I was disappointed not to hear any unobtanium jokes. Love your podcast guys.

I do not understand the complaints for mecha carrying guns and knives. How is this a difficult concept to comprehend? The mecha is an extension of the human body, it has arms and hands and fingers, and as such it is able to carry and pick up anything that will come in handy on a trek on Pandora, a gun for shooting cat people and a knife for cutting down trees and shit. That's all the mecha is, an extension of the human body. Having a knife permanently attached to the arm is retarded and impractical!

Watched it again, for the 4th time in IMAX 3-D. Love the fact that Dave Chen can't get the creatures names right, as he harps on the details of the script! LOL!

I'm so glad you guys sung the praises of 25th Hour. It is indeed excellent and is also extremely important historically, as it acted as a time capsule to capturing the true essence and sentiment of post 9/11 New York City shortly after the attacks. Or that's the impression that I got--tell me if I'm wrong New Yorkers.

Century is usually used in the context of 100 years starting at 00 to 99 so sorry that I misunderstood. Also cinema isn't much older than 100 years so yeah of course there's more important movies in the entire history of movies, first with sound, first with color, first with stop-motion, first with CG-effects. And for movies in specific I can think of a few as well that’s more important than Avatar, not many though.

Well, Ok, you are talking about technology. It is definitely a next step in the current mo-cap 3D technology. We'll see where that goes. I was never debating it's technological merits.

i Watched Avatar movie tonight and Sam Worthington is my favorite actor.

Bowtrol

Hey folks. I just got back from an IMAX 3D screening of Avatar & am relieved that I can finally join the obviously heated & mixed discussion. First off, I thoroughly enjoyed the film as a visually stunning feast as well as a satisfyingly (albeit not incredibly revolutionary or original) moving story. I was completely immersed throughout, in what I would call a truly unique cinematic experience.

Yes, the dialogue is not of the highest caliber, but it didn't take away from the overall effect that the movie had on me. Besides the breathtaking visuals, Cameron's take on the evils of colonialism/imperialism/greed etc. was told in a pretty fresh way I believe, while still giving the audience an incredible opportunity to journey into Pandora along with Jake Sully. A lot is being said about his lack of characterization & quite frankly I'm pretty surprised. I believe the movie was trying to convey much more than an examination of a particular character & the fact that Jake's personality was sort of muted didn't deter me from rooting for him & I was actually rather moved by the overall redemptive turn his character took.

Is Avatar the most profound cinematic story put to film? No, no it's not. But the fact that it brings me on one helluva ride, while conveying important and relevant themes makes it a success in my eyes.

I'm getting tired of all these movies with paraplegic ex-marines who after his scientist twin brother dies gets offered to continue his extremely expensive science experiment because he’s the only one who can do it. And then he like always travels at ~99% of light speed for six years to a distant planet in cryo-sleep. Once there…. Want me to go on, think about it for more than two seconds and anyone who says that this is an un original story is just dead wrong, end of discussion.

Those are all paper thin plot points constructed around the most unoriginal thematic elements I've seen all year.

Just as they were in District 9. Paper-thin plot holes, but somehow it worked there for people but not in Avatar. It just seems very odd to me. But again it's not a discussion, no one is going to change their minds.

I liked District 9 more because it actually made me invested in the characters, however flawed they were. That and it felt like Avatar was 10x more ham handed in delivering its message than D9 was.

For the record, I like Avatar more than District 9. I think District 9 is incredibly overrated. I really enjoyed Avatar despite the weak story.

Every plot is original if you get specific enough. And no plot is original if you get vague enough. I'm not sure what point you're making.

Same as everyone seems to wanna make. Everything is the same story and every story is original, won't get us anywhere though.

Did the original Star Wars have well written dialogue and character development? That film was as stereotypical as they come and yet it defined a generation.

Which character in Avatar is the new Han Solo? Is that army guy with the scars our new Darth Vader? How many people do you think even remember the names of anyone but Jake Sully?

Despite the fact that in many ways Star Wars was a bad movie, it did know how to create memorable characters, a big universe, and an interesting mythology.

Do we need a new *** for it to work? Jake Sully and Neytiri I think we'll remember for a long time. Also the story is self contained and with the speed everything happens there's never enough time to introduce more characters than there already is. In the next movies there'll probably be more of them, and maybe even some we'll fall in love with.

Analyzing the best films of the last hundred years would take a lot more time than I'm willing to put into this discussion. I know that Avatar isn't getting on my list.

The point is that, other that the tech, I don't see what Avatar's achievement is. It was very very pretty.

They will build on the technological achievements of Avatar, but we weren't talking about technology.

So what movie in your opinion is the most amazing cinematic achievement of the century?

Whatever you say. We just have different ideas of cinematic achievement. I like a bit more substance in my style.

Yes people will build on the great achievements of Kathryn Bigelow and not of those made by James Cameron.

Listen, you act like people are saying the movie is terrible. Nobody is saying it didn't work, we're saying it's not the most revolutionary, amazing cinematic achievement of the century. The story is fine, just totally by the numbers. The characters do what they have to, but are pretty nondescript. The visuals, however, are great.

It's definitely the most revolutionary, amazing cinematic achievement of the century and the story is exactly what it should be for a movie like this, anymore and it would have made for a less exiting one in my opinion and I wouldn’t have liked that at all. It would have slowed the pacing down and it would have put too much of a emphasis on specific character development and not enough on Jakes journey which is really important to the story and definitely deserves the focus it gets.

Star Wars had characters you actually cared about. If they were stereotypical archetypes - at least they were well drawn. As David pointed out - as characters died in Avatar I felt nothing. The dialog in the original Star Wars was not well written - but it still managed to feel like it fit with the style of the films. Those were movies that were inspired by old serials like Flash Gordon after all.

David and Adam: way to keep things real. I think that was your best review yet.

BTW- to everyone referencing "Dances with Wolves" and "The Last Samurai." THAT is your argument for "this plot has been so many times before" ?? Two movies separated by 13 years? And before you start listing every other movie it is similar to remember that we can play the tit for tat game all night

Really Dan? The "Noble Savage" myth has been retold countless times. This time it's in space. This time the "savages" are blue. The reason it annoys me is not because it is a retread - it's just because the underlying theme is so naive and simplistic. The idea that humanity lost it's basic morality by using technology or turning away from the natural world is ridiculous. Humans were greedy, selfish and destructive even when he lived in caves and clubbed each other of the head fighting over women and watering holes.... which reminds me - to hear someone compare Avatar to 2001 - on any level - just makes my head hurt.

I'll assume, then, that you don't like The Matrix, The Terminator or Terminator 2? All of those films are also about "humanity losing it's basic morality by using technology or turning away from the natural world." Though I feel Avatar along with those films are much more complex than that reductive and minimizing statement-- along with the "Noble Savage" analog.

I don't think the message in Avatar is as simple as Technology= bad, Primitivism= good, Cameron even pointed this out himself in his interview with Dave. Without technology Jake would not have been able to be reborn (this is major). Without technology Jake wouldn't have been able to give the Na'vi the avantage to survive the war with humans.

That said, I do not disagree wtih you that it is heavy handed, but I do think there are more layers in that heavy hand than you're giving credit.

First of all, I liked Avatar. I enjoyed it. I didn't think it was a masterpiece, but it got me thinking enough that I'm here at 2:00 am posting messages about it after seeing it today - which I rarely do for any movie. I'm just giving my honest reaction to the underlying themes and characters, which I think could have been stronger and more nuanced.

The comparison to Terminator and the Matrix isn't really valid to me. Cautionary tales about the potential destructive force of our own tools and technology is something a bit different than the message I'm getting in Avatar. Avatar doesn't seem to be so much about the potential of technology to go wrong - but the potential for technology to corrupt humanity. The evil here is not an AI - it's us.

What I'm saying is this: technology does not foster evil in humanity - it can merely increases the destructive outcome of that evil. The Navi are depicted as somehow wise and completely in tune with their environment. They have a kind of shared neurology that connects them with the whole planet. They talk about always keeping a balance of energies - always returning the energy taken from Pandora back to it... yet a large part of their society seems to be based on warfare. Why do they fight? Who do they fight? There seems to be a contradiction here.

It's the same contradiction that always arises in such tales. It is not hard to sympathize with the plight of Native Americans with the coming of the white men. It is easy to see beauty in their culture and admire their greater respect of natural resources... but then it's so quickly forgotten that the American continent was not a utopia before the Europeans got here. There was constant warfare between and within tribes - atrocities were committed without any guns or bombs. The Aztecs use of human sacrifice should go down in the history books as one of the most horrific reigns of terror in human history. But for Europeans it's treated as more of an historical curiosity. There is always this emphasis on the violent history of the western world and the rise of technologies to enable that violence - but the truth is that the whole history of the human race is one of violence. The natural world we've arisen from is inherently violent and competitive. Technology has allowed us to kill and destroy on a greater scale, but it is also technology and civilization that has lead to some semblance of peace in the world - some potential for humans to live without fighting for their lives everyday.

So yeah, basically I'm just saying Avatar is heavy handed. To me it's depicting primitivism as somehow inherently moral and the enemy of the corrupting forces of technology... this is simplistic at best and completely inaccurate at worst.

I still liked the movie

PS. i'm a vegetarian and a member of the Sierra Club. I'm not a Fox News viewer.

Oh yes, and Blade Runner.