I am a seventh day adventist christian.I believe in Jesus Christ.I believe He died and rose again.He took my place on the cross and because He rose again,I can now boldly approach the throne of grace.

can you see the air? no, you can only feel it. Thats how i know my Jesus lives.

He says no one come unto the Father except through me


paul says in Acts 4 vs 12
Neither is there salvation in any other,for there is none other name under heaven given among men,whereby we must be saved.

Come on people!! we see God in everything around us,even in our babies.....our children.Let GOD and let go!! Those prophets before us wouldn't give up there lives for nothing.the Devil is a liar!!! God bless you all

I am a christian.I bekieve in Christ.I believe He died and rose again.He took my place on the cross and because He rose again,I

By the way, I'm waiting for the movie that shows the sun standing still and even moving backwards--that must have been a hard day on the battlefield, and I do believe many were sun struck.

The might get the Mormon Choir group to mum, and see if enough of them can bring some wall down. Or we might find religious groups to pray for Jerry up in Heaven to put a word in for us.

I know I don't have any answers, but the nice thing is that many of you don't either. Just speculation about the unknown. There have been thousands of religions since the beginning of humans, and there made be thousands more. I just learned on another site that religion is found on chromosome 14 about 166,000 nucleotides in from the 5?. See John T. under Crazy Religious Woman--he has solved the mystery.

It is written, that in the last days, false prophets will arise.
I thank my Lord that his return is at hand.
........................................................................................
Now for those who can't and wont believe the BIBLE, you really need
to think of what you are saying. This film is just what it is, a film.
Man made, mens thoughts.
Basic
Instructions
Before
Leaving
Earth......................B I B L E.

darren, your mind is as twisted as your English.

Yes, Jesus existed and some of the events - reported in the awfully edited book called the Bible - took place but the rest is just bullshit. More than 400 years between the events and the first bible should tell you about the accuracy of the book itself.

To the narrowminded ones: Stick your stupid belief up in your ass and stop encouraging wars, forcing our children to learn about your fantasy world and voting for idiots who believe that god speaks to them.

Loki, you rock!


- J

jesus might have been found but his soul rose to heven in peace

well so many questions to be answerd ... but i dont believe anything i dont c i think everything was related to other life forms because i cant explain anything else, if we are gods children and jesus is our brother , where is our supernatural powers... have u ever thought of that? Did u also know that the word GOD in ancient egyptian means the visitors from above. let me give you a good example if you go back in time and you tell people where you come from you can fly in planes they are going to say wat the fuck is a plane ? and people cant fly only angels can. just like in the 1400s people thought the world was flat , what a bunch of idiots... thats just what i think there are so many mysteries that cannot be proven , like the nazca lines and the stone henge , the pyramids... how were the pyramids built? when the wheel was invented only 3000 b.c? and the pyramids were there for about 6000 b.c. only time will tell as more we advance our technology the more we will find the truth about religion and other things...

thank you for reading

Okay about that tomb thing, just because they have the same DNA doesn't mean it was Jesus and his sons. It just means they were all related. James Cameron; how does he knows Jesus' DNA? He didn't exist 2000 years ago. And if Jesus didn't resurrect, why would his apostles even write about it? Who would want to do that much writing about false stories? And also I don't think they would go die in such a painful way if Jesus wasn't the son of God. Almost all of them died for Jesus. Yeah, I don't think they would've done that. One example, Peter was crucified upside down. He didn't think he deserved to die like Jesus, so he died upside down. And where did Jesus' miracles come from? If Jesus did other miracles, I'm sure he could have risen from the dead. Also because of his miracles, so many people were amazed and followed him. And If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, why would he have so many followers? Why are there so many Christians? Why did so many people believe in him? I don't think they would have if he didn't resurrect.

You’re not close-minded, if your where, you would not have even read my post.

The buts and the butts get mixed up when your typing fast, but the buttheads don't. Heh.

I do lump all the Christian faiths together when I write, and I’m sure that you consider your particular brand of Christianity better then the rest, but the fact remains that Christianity as a whole, has a blood soaked history. You say that “true Christians” wouldn’t do such things, and I’m sure that you feel that you wouldn’t, but it has happened so many times in the past that its hard for me to take your words as more then your own personal assurances that you yourself would not. They thought they were “true Christians” too. Perhaps I judge your faith harshly, I have read both old and new testaments, and I agree that there is a lot of good in it. (A lot of really bad stuff too) But at the same time, I judge Christianity as I judge a tree, by the fruit it bears. Hmmm where did that come from? LOL

Anyway, I try to understand; that your belief system is a comfort to you, I’m sure it is in many ways. To me you are weak for needing such succor. One should be moral for the sake of being moral, not out of fear of god’s wraith. But my point is that it is fine with me that you believe in what you believe, as long as you don’t try to force it on me or my progeny. I would also have a problem with it if it try’s to interfere with the secular running of our state. I’d hate to see yet another holy war, Jihad or crusade, more book burning, destruction of knowledge, just because it doesn’t fit into someone’s belief system. If I did pray, I would pray that Christians try to be tolerant.

I agree with most of what you say about Islam, but hearing it from you is like watching a guy in a glass house throw rocks. I have another link that sights the evils committed in the name of Islam. Also a bloody track record. I have been to the gulf region and have observed theocracies in action. One needs only think about the Taliban and their treatment of women to see where that leads. If James Cameron had dug up the bones of Mohamed, they would probably be sending holy warriors to kill him. I’m very happy that we have a division of church and state here in the USA. I’d hate to see us go down that path of in-tolerant zealotry fanaticism!

LOKI

Loki- Glad to hear you have a wife. I was reading other post where people were cally you a "he" and I was wondering why. From the name and the way you type I always immagined you as a stubborn female. Sorry man, it's just in the name. You responded to me about coming from a monkey's butt and ya know what? If you would've known that the butt on your body has two b's in it then I may have given you some credibility. Hey, I may misspell a words too but not one as simple as that... lol.

Anyway, you call people like me closed minded. You're totally wrong. Well maybe some are but not myself. I've checked out things that you believe and they have no more proof than the things I believe. I'm just glad that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a God and Jesus Christ is and was God in the flesh who came to forgive all that will believe for their sins. I for one sin all of the time. I don't condemn others that sin and don't believe in Christ. In the end it's for God to Judge and not any of us. The only difference between you and I in life (besides I'm better looking) is when I sin I am forgiven, where as until you get off your high horse and realize you are the one with the imprisoned mind and accept what Christ did for us, you are not.

I really wish someone could help you but it sounds to me like you've rejected God so many times that your heart and mind has shut itself down to ever listening to the truth. You go onto athiest websites to get so much negative information about what Christians have done is the past. If you are an athiest I don't understand what the point is trying to convince the world that God doesn't exist? Seems like you're life is in a prison trying to fight people that don't agree with you. Why spend so much time with arguing with Christian people if we are too stupid to listen to you anyway?

You keep quoting what the Church has done and how they have killed in the name of Christ. I am far from Catholic and I don't agree with their faith anyway. Haven't done much studying about it and don't feel I need to and am not going to waste my time in doing it, but it seems to me they put as much if not more time into praising Mary, calling her the Mother of God and worshipping her than they do Jesus himself. Many of the symbols in the Catholic church a of pagan nature anyway. Even the priest of the church and the calling of them Father. Jesus said to call no man Father eccept for the Father which is in heaven and the bible clearly teaches that Christ is the most high priest, eliminating the need for the priest in church. After Christ came it gave us a directly link to God, ridding of of the need to go a priest to ask him to contact God for us. Anyway, I'm not trying to knock down the Catholic church but I just don't agree with it along with a few others around so before some of you want to label all Christians as one think about the different denominations. I'm not saying any one is perfect but some are more perfect than others.

I go to church regularly and do listen to the preacher at my church, but I also challenge what he says by reading God's Word on my on. It's like the preacher at my church says, "Don't put your faith in me because I will fail you everytime. I'm just a sinner just like everyone else. I'm not perfect the only one that is is God himself and if you are looking for the perfect church don't join it because you'll ruin it." I like the church I go to and no one in our church would ever think of killing anyone in the name of Christ. I and my church look at it as have compassion on people like LOKI and live our life as a good testimony so someone like him will see the good in us. Pray for lost sinners that maybe one day they'll open there eyes and come out of the darkness and ask forgiveness. If all else fails, kill 'em! LOL.... I'M KIDDING about that last part, just thought LOKI would like that.

Muslims though, that is a whole diffrerent story. Their beloved Qur'an does tell them the following...
Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9:5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85)
... and you want to blaim the Christians for the wars in the Middle East? No where in the Holy Bible will you ever find Christ teaching to kill people who disagree with his teachings. Any thing LOKI has posted about Christians killing is totally false. Even is you have documented proof it is still false because if anyone is a true Christian they would never harm anyone in the name of Christ. Anyone who does so is not a Christian. This is just another way the devil deceives.

Jeff E.

To Neutral: Thank you, it’s nice to see someone with an open and free mind. There are many more of us out there, so don’t give up hope that the voice of reason will prevail. Don’t worry about me spending too much time on blogs, I type at 60wpm+ and all though this is, by far, not the only blog that I visit and post on, it still only takes me about an hour a night to; read, try to comprehend, think over, and post. But I feel that it’s well worth it. It is something that a care deeply about. And David need not be concerned, I have a loving wife and family, and I get out of the house every day, even if I don’t need too.

I do realize that it is mostly futile to argue with zealots and bigots but one can hope that perhaps just one or two that are not too far gone might hear the voice of reason and question. The next thing you know they might start to think for themselves instead of just blindly following their local heard, swallowing the dogma given them whole with out even chewing. I’m sure that you understand how good that feels, to break free of the mold! To get up on your own intellectual feet! And know that you have the ability to think things through, to reason, use logic, and critically think! It’s the only true freedom left. To free one of these slaves would make me feel like Morpheus, giving birth and or berth to a new dreamer.

To David Gonzales: Ask your self, in your heart of hearts, why I annoy you so?

You hate what I write; yet still you return, night after night, to see what it is I have written.

Ask yourself why you hate what I write. Is it because I don’t believe in your god? Or perhaps it is something else…

Perhaps there is some nagging question that digs at the back of your brain, but what is it! What is the question? Why are you even questioning?

You feel it and can all most bring it forth, and for a second, you wonder if there realy is a god!!! but you are ashamed! Fearful of the wraith of GOD! He may strike you down just for thinking the question! You beat it back to the tinny crevasse from which it came. In fear you tell your self that such thoughts come from the devil. And you promise god you will not have such thoughts again.

In this way you are imprisoned, imprisoned in your own mind, too fearful to doubt or question, to measure an idea for even a second if it would go against the grain of your god.

If you ask me, I’d say you are already in the HELL you so fear. A prisoner in your own mind, not allowed to think, crippled by the dogma of FEAR. Such is superstion. let it go for just a second, and see how it feels.

Scary? yea, I know. but if you can just push back your fear! Fear is what the bars of your prison are made of!
BE BRAVE! Break free!!!!
LOKI

Though I agree that Loki is spending a little to much time on this blog I also think he is providing well thought, articulated points. I am not a christian or religious at all. I understand the comforting aspect of god but my logical mind will not accept the large percentage of myth and theory to be true. I have never been good at expressing my thoughts towards religion and though I do not share the same aggresive behavior its nice to see someone put into words how I feel. Again I think Loki is a little over bearing and to aggresive so I dont agree with everything but nonetheless my jaw drops with when reading his statments because I've never been able to articulate how I feel and does it so easily.
MESSAGE TO LOKI- I understand your passion and we share a common interest but you must relize that it is futile to argue with people of faith. Their trust in god is to great to be swayed. I think we are all good people that follow diffrent paths. We really shouldnt beat up on each other.

Loki, I think everyone on this blog is sick of you already. Like I said, go find a girlfriend and leave the house every once in a while. I really hate to say this but I think you have problems. Like I said before, go away, you have to be the most stubborn and annoying person on this blog.

ok for the previous guy that asked "if we came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys". WE SHARE THE SAME GENETIC MAKEUP AS MONKEYS. HASN'T ANY OF YOU HEARD OF THE MISSING LINK??? ITS WHAT LINK APES TO HUMANS! SOMEWHERE DOWN THE EVOLUTIONARY SCALE HUMANS ASKEWED FROM THE ORIGINAL HOMOSAPIEN MAKEUP. So in example we all started out as product A and then somewhere down the line A split into B (humans) and the rest of A split into C (monkeys).

Darwin rules!

I read the bible before I started bashing it. Both old and new testament.
Try reading and understanding Darwin before you bash, then at least maybe you can make a sound argument. But I doubt it. The theory is very sound and backed by a lot of hard fact and scientific evidence. Not just people flying out of monkey’s buts. LOL. That statement only makes you look backward and ignorant. But I think I understand how you feel. I guess you would just hate to think that you’re just a really tall monkey with a little bit more brainpower. Doesn’t sound as cool as a creature created by a divine being. But I hate to tell you. You’re just a tall hairy animal with a big brain and also the most efficient killer on the planet. Not only are you capable of killing every other species on the planet, but your able to kill each other, and with extreme prejudice! And when you’re done, you just go and pray for forgiveness and everything is just fine, you feel forgiven and expect to go to heaven. What a hoot. I just wish you Christians and Muslims could practice your faith without running around killing people and burning books, destroying knowledge, quite latterly causing more then one genocide in past and current history. The sins of your faiths past should be hanging around your necks like an albatross! You don’t see people running around killing in the name of Darwin. What am I talking about? Read the above post. Its all been meticulously documented throughout history. Research the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity that I’ve listed in the above posts and prove me wrong! Then you can come back here and preach your BS and I might just listen.

LOKI

Man, I don't even know what to say to many of you. I read post up to maybe the beginning of March and then got bored with it. Christians and non-Christians and even non-believers in God all together, most of you just rambling on thinking you are all smarter than the other. I don't even know how I stumbled accross this website anymore but now that I'm here I feel the urge to put my two cents worth in. If you don't agree with me, fine, cuss me out or whatever but I don't even know if I'll be back to read it so you may be wasting you time.

First of all I am a Christian. I know by faith that Jesus Christ lived and died and was resurrected and I can hear many of you now calling me stupid for it but I could care less what you think of me, I still know it's true.

I know science as well, and what is science? Science in cases like uncovering history is based on theories. What are theories? They are opinions of the person making them up based on some facts, not complete facts but just some. The problem is many people read something "scientifically proven" and take it for fact when it's only a theory. How many times have we found that we believe something based on science only to find out later that more scientific evidence is uncovered that makes the first theory wrong? Science changes so much because one scientist proves another scientist wrong that I can't believe anyone would put their faith in science.

Some say Creationism is a bunch of crap and put their faith in a scientific theory (maybe I should put THEORY in all caps for ya) called evolution. A narrow minded person like myself would say, "Okay, so if the evolution theory is correct and if we all came out of a monkey's butt, then why are there still monkies?" If something evolutionizes that species becomes no more. If that's where we came from then prove it, go to the zoo or jungle and show me another animal pop out a human baby and I'll get on my knees and worship you and admit that I am wrong. In my opinion it takes way more faith to believe in evolution than it takes to believe that God created us.

I would like to convince you all about what Jesus can do for you in your life but without you believing in the bible I would think this would be nearly impossible. Maybe some of the non-believers can take a baby step and read in the Old Testament in Exodus about the 10 plagues put on Egypt because Pharaoh's heat was hardened (like a bunch of yours) and he would not believe in God and would not let God's people go. For you that put your faith in science the first six plagues in order can be scientifically proven by theory. In order, the first would have led to the second, and the second to the third, and so on to the sixth. Also in archaeology they uncovered a papyrus written by an Egyptian scribe named Ipuwer. Archaeology dates it about 200 years after the plagues recorded in the bible but who is to say the date the archaeologist theory states isn't off because it sounds a whole lot like what the bible records in Exodus. Here it is.....

"Nay, but the heart is violent. Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere . . . Nay, but the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water . . . Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire . . . Nay but men are few. He that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere . . . Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognised . . . The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt . . . Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume and oil. Everyone says 'there is no more'. The storehouse is bare . . . It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men."
Ipuwer Papyrus. On display in the Leiden Museum.

Anyway, I know the above isn't exactly about Christ but maybe it's a start to at least get some of your closed hearts thinking.

I read one comment from a Jewish person in here who was talking about how he/she hated some of the Christians in his area while growing up because the so called Christians made his life a living hell. Well maybe so but who's to say that those so called Christians were really Christians? Many people claim to be Christian but don't know Christ at all. Jesus says that many in the day of judgement will say to him, "Lord, Lord, did not we cast out demons and prophecised in your name?" Jesus will tell them, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity, I never knew you!" Many people profess to be Christians but are not at all Christian, don't let some idiots like that stereotype true Christian belivers. I personally am not going to judge you as a Jew just because your faith is different from mine. If I am correct however, Jews still believe in Heaven and Hell. If you are of true Jewish faith, in the Old Testament God tells you to bring to him your animal sacrifices as burnt offerings upon the altar to Him. Then after Moses freed God's people, God gave specific instructions for building a temple with the specific place to bring burnt offerings to him at in the temple. My question is, when is the last time you took your best animal to the temple to offer to the Lord God as your burnt offering? If I'm not mistaken that is the only way you can be forgiven of your sins and get to Heaven before Christ came. Why is it so hard to believe that Jesus Christ came as God's son, God's sacrifice for us. Jesus came to shed his innocent blood for us once and for all so we could now through him have a direct link to God and be forgiven from our sins without all of the constant animal sacrificing. Jesus was a Jew so why is so hard for a Jewish person to believe on him? If you really study the Old Testament doesn't it point many times to the coming of Christ and didn't Jesus fullfill all of the prophecy about his coming?

Oh well, I never meant to type so much in here. If you read all of this, I'm sorry for the book I just made you read. Hopefully it'll help you. If I only can help one person to believe and understand out of a million it will all be worth it. With that being said I leave all you scientist types with this.....

Proverbs 3: 5-7
Trust in the Lord with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. Be not wise in your own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

In otherwords we can't and won't understand it all in this lifetime. Everything is too complex for us but not for God. The bible also says to become saved be as little children and have faith as they do. It says at the end of time the wise will look as fools.

Oh, and last thing I promise... If you are a non-believer because you once used to pray for things and the prayers were never answered. Remember, the bible says that unless we do the things God ask us to do such as, read your bible daily, pray many times daily, have faith and give your tithes to God (not talking about sending your money to some preacher on TV trying to get rich off of old people because he is only in it for the money, but give to your local church) and so on that God will not even hear your prayers. I can testify to that because I prayed a lot but never seemed to get anything answered when I really needed it to be. Finally when I started obeying what God ask me to do and started trying my best to stay away from sin as well, I have noticed huge changes for the better in everything in my life. It's awesome. You guys should try it. Not just for a day but take that leap of faith and sincerely have faith, read the bible and do as the bible teaches and see if I'm not right. Don't tell me I'm wrong until you try it and sincerely try it not just to see if you can get a prayer answered in your life.

Anyway- GOODBYE and God Bless.
Jeff E.

Oh please! I’ve destroyed every argument you two tried to make. Its time for you two bigots to pack it in, run away with your superstitious tails between your legs. Go make some T in O maps or something.

LOKI

Loki, from what I've seen, you weren't putting up much of an argument with my friend Rednab. You circled almost everything he said, and came back with a lot of mumbo jumbo crap about historians and fancy wording. The reason why I am not responding to you is because some people are just plain ignorant, and their hearts are so past hardening, that I feel they have already committed the unpardonalble sin. Dont think for a minute that Rednab and I are avoiding you, we just have lives, you know familiy, work and school. Get a girlfriend or wife, spending too much time on this blog is not healthy!!!!

Thank you Pavel, nice of you. Much nicer then your last post. But I’ll pass. I have also been blessed my whole life. But I don’t give credit to god or gods. My good fortune has come from my own hard work and will to succeed.

You stated that” I live in Bulgaria, Europe, which was an atheistic country and everyone here saw where it leads peoples and nations — degradation and evilness.”

Did you read any of the above 5-page essays on the evils preformed in the name of Christianity? Sounds to me that its like your now out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Please read it Pavel, the above posts, before you next post wile being uninformed. Meanwhile, I will do a little study about Bulgaria and see if your point has merit.

May you continue to be blessed, weather by god or just good fortune, or preferably buy your own hard work. :)
LOKI

Sorry for a second posting but forgot something important:

No, I'm not raised as a Christian, I live in Bulgaria, Europe, which was an atheistic country and everyone here saw where it leads peoples and nations -- degradation and evilness. You're free to go that way but I return from there and I assure you it's not a good place.

I became Christian when I was 13, the age of searching and relentlessness about every lie and fake. Yes, Christ is not fake and He is the Truth, I testify on my personal experience!

Maybe your parents and teachers have been evil and treated you badly but this is not Lord's treatment and care, it's just faulty people with weak strength and good-abilities, can you forgive them for that? This is the point. If you'd know God personally and not by other people's words and deeds, you can tell. Is He bad or is He good?

I witness He is GOOD and has blessed my whole life ever since :)
I wish the same to you, Loki.

to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]

As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick

loki

to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]

As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end.

If today Christians talk to me about morality, this is why they make me sick
LOKI
sight sorce
http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/victimsofchris...

- To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life.
Christianity kills the cat
- On July 1, 1976, Anneliese Michel, a 23-year-old student of a teachers college in Germany, died: she starved herself to death. For months she had been haunted by demonic visions and apparitions, and for months two Catholic priests - with explicit approval of the Catholic bishop of Würzburg - additionally pestered and tormented the wretched girl with their exorcist rituals. After her death in Klingenberg hospital - her body was littered with wounds - her parents, both of them fanatical Catholics, were sentenced to six months for not having called for medical help. None of the priests was punished: on the contrary, Miss Michel's grave today is a place of pilgrimage and worship for a number of similarly faithful Catholics (in the seventeenth century Würzburg was notorious for it's extensive witch burnings).
- This case is only the tip of an iceberg of such evil superstition and has become known only because of its lethal outcome. [SP80]
Rwanda Massacres:
- In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups. For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.
- According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported
continued......

Church Atrocities:
Catholic extermination camps:
- Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]

Catholic terror in Vietnam:
- In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]
- Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism. The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
"Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
- Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps.
continued....

treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
- On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
- So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow: "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
- Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
- Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time) In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
- The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
Other tribes were to follow the same path.
Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
- "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
- Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
- In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]

In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
- To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118]
These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
continued..... not even done yet......

Native Peoples:

Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual l understood as a means to propagate Christianity.

- Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
- While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
- On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
"I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]

Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the
intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke
against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
- In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
- On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
- The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
- The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
- What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
"The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
Or, on another occasion:

- The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73]
- "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
- "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitlán [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]

Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.
- Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
- In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
"Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105]
- Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the

continued......

Jews:
- Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
- In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
- 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
- The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
- First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
- Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
- Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
- Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]

(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
continued.........

Crusades: (1095-1291)
First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
- Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
- 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
- Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
- Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
- Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
(In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
- Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
- Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
- Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224]

Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
continued......

Rednab: You said in your post “Loki also has difficulty separatiing what people do from what the Bible says.”

You are very right! But…. I’m just judging a tree by the fruit it bears, and your religion bears some really rotten fruits….


As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
- Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
- Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]

Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
- In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
- In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]

The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415. [DO19-25]
640 AD Eorcenberht succeeds Eadbald as King of Kent, and becomes the first English king to order the destruction of pagan idols throughout his kingdom;

Mission:

Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
- Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
- 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]

16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were)
which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and friends on the grounde".
Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
continued...........

David Gonzales: sigh, please make an argument, a point or something, I’m so beyond your petty narrow-minded insults and threats of damnation, LOL! “Soon his day on this earth will end, and he will have eternity to think, {while he’s in pain of course} why did’nt I listen to the Christians”. ROFL!!! How you zealots think that you have a patent on the one and only TRUTH and why you believe that your belief system is correct and the hundred other religions out there are wrong is spectacularly ignorant. A slap in the face to Islam, Judaism, Samaritanism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto, Yiguandao, Atenism, Zoroastrianism, Mithrasm, and did I mention Alien-based religions Don’t get me started! LOL You think that the Christians/Jews where the first to make up gods, LOL, The making up god thing was in business a long time before some Jews made up the god of Abraham. Still to this day men are making up new gods. Even when there is not a shred of evidence to back their claim, at least none any better then the hundred other religions out their. They all believe they are right too. BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THEY ARE NOT BIGOTS LIKE YOU TELLING EVERYONE ELSE THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!
So next time you post, try to make a valid point, or an original argument. That just telling people that they are going to burn in hell, cause they don’t believe the same as you, crap just isn’t gona cut it!
As for your friend Rednab, seems he couldn’t handle the heat, so he got out of the fire. Dustin off his feet and movein down the road I guess.

LOKI

Hey Rednab, Loki is not worth even replying to anymore. I think all the readers know you got your point across, and deep down, so does he. Soon his day on this earth will end, and he will have eternity to think, {while he's in pain of course} why did'nt I listen to the Christians. I really do not care if Loki replies to what I am saying, because he is not worth replying to anyway. Thanks for your comments buddy, I think everyone enjoyed your feedback. Again good job man, Loki reminds me of one those spoiled brat rich kids who never received enough attention growing up, or maybe he was not too popular. I think you got under Loki's skin just a little bit!!!

On a liter note:
Chocolate Jesus! What a hoot. Cosimo Cavallaro An oddball artist known for his "eclectic" forms of expression, in his latest contribution to culture is a six-foot tall, anatomically correct milk-chocolate sculpture of Jesus Christ. His confectionary Christ is made with more than 200 pounds of chocolate, containing approximately 480,000 calories. The artistic endeavor titled, "My Sweet Lord,” The sculpture has some catholic watch groups in an uproar; they say something to the effect that it is the worst assault on Christianity yet. Bla bla. So I went on the Internet and did a goggle search and found a plethora of sights that make little chocolate religious items from chocolate crucifix lollipops, crosses, to the Baptism lollipop! LOL only $3.50 plus shipping and handling. I don’t know what strikes me so funny, the fact that there are such confections or the fact that someone gets upset over them.
Loki

sorry, my word processer had a hissy fit in the above post , ill try again.

Rednab: No Rednab, You’re the child, even using that argument is childish. Where I have grown up and now think on my own, you still do not think for your self but follow the dogma, superstitions and backward beliefs of a barbaric slave religon / superstition. You again try to make the argument that one must believe in your god to be moral. I have to repeat myself. But. HOGWASH! I hate to be the one to tell you but their lots of us that don’t believe in your god and we lead good and moral lives. Not because we are scared of gods and devils but because it’s the right thing to do. It is my opinion that good and evil lie in the harts of men, not in gods and devils. Gods and devils LOL sounds like Santa clause, the tooth fairy, don’t step on the crack or you will break your mothers back! Who’s the child here? You are! With such childish superstitions. I pity your enslaved mind and hope that some day you will be free of your crippling superstitions.
LOKI

Rednab: No Rednab, You’re the child, even using that argument is childish. Where I have grown step on the crack or you will break your mothers back! Who’s the child here? You are! With such childish superstitions. I pity your enslaved mind and hope that some day you will be free of your crippling superstitions. up and now think on my own, you still do not think for your self but follow the dogma, superstitions and backward beliefs of a barbaric slave religon / superstition. You again try to make the argument that one must believe in your god to be moral. I have to repeat myself. But. HOGWASH! I hate to be the one to tell you but their lots of us that don’t believe in your god and we lead good and moral lives. Not because we are scared of gods and devils but because it’s the right thing to do. It is my opinion that good and evil lie in the harts of men, not in gods and devils. Gods and devils LOL sounds like Santa clause, the tooth fairy, don’t walk under a ladder! I pitty you like I would a handycaped child, or that of a person that has had a lobotomy, enslaved in his body unable to think becouse that porton of his brain has been cut out. i hope you get well soon

LOKI

Hey Pavel, nice to have someone else chime in....our friend Loki is kinda like the 16 year-old teenager who is imprisoned by his mean and hateful parents that won't let him fo what he wants, cause we all know those teenagers know everything and are always right. Those teenagers never know that their parents are that way because they love them and want to protect them. Loki see's God as an evil hate-filled, tyrant while Christians see God as their loving father. Loki also has difficulty separatiing what people do from what the Bible says. Well I think Paul said something about not throwing pearls before swine. Loki oinks a lot.....folks should take Pauls advice and shake the dust off your feet and move on down the road.

Pavel: I am free. My mind is free in a way you may never understand. I doubt you will ever have the intestinal fortitude to break free of your own bonds, fears, suppressions, that imprison your mind, but one can hope, and I hope that you do some day. You quoted me, but it was but a small part of my post. As for your devil, I don’t believe in him either so threatening me with being chained to your devil is less then useless.
You automatically believe that I am evil because I don’t believe in your god. I am used to such prejudices. I am used to the arrogance, those so certain that they are right, looking down on all those that don’t believe as they do. At some points in time, even ostracizing, torturing and even murdering those that don’t share their particular faith. It is ugliness like a tyrants grin.
Based on your post, you see me as a drug using, porn watching rude and nasty person heading for a “relationship catastrophe’. Dude, you don’t even know me! But the fact that I don’t believe as you do, you automatically believe such must be so. But I also make assumptions; I assume that you where indoctrinated into religion at an early age when your mind was to weak to resist the brainwashing of well meaning parents or piers. And now, a grown man, call it faith. There for, it is not so much you’re fought and I try not to hold it against you.
You seem to think that one must believe in your god to be a moral and good person. It is condescending and ugly. I hate to be the one to tell you but their lots of us that don’t believe in your god and we lead good and moral lives. Not because we are scared of gods and devils but because it’s the right thing to do. It is my opinion that good and evil lie in the harts of men, not in gods and devils.
I continue to learn about religions each day. The more I glean from reading, internet searching, talking with others, the more scared I am of it. This must be quite shocking to you. How could I question your religion when it is so obviously good and wholesome? Bah! Religions have a very bad track record my friend! Through out history quite a few people have been killed in the name of religions, religious wars, both crusades and jihad’s, inquisitions, witch hunts and such, just to name a few. Although I have done research on all religions, I’ll let you know that Christianity is right up there with the front-runners, neck and neck with Islam. I could list the atrocities here but it would take way to much space. This post is long enough already. Perhaps I will put it in another post if it becomes a hot topic. Anyway, my point is that you are up on your high horse judging others for not believing in your faith, when you should be asking the question WHY?

LOKI

LOKI said:
"if I’m wrong I go to hell, well all I can say is that I’d sooner burn in hell with a free thinking mind then serve in heaven as a servant / slave of the god of the old testament"

Loki, look pal, you believe one of the oldest LIES known to mankind, that God wants you to be a slave and He's evil, that true FREEDOM can be achieved only by rebellion to God's laws.
Actually you're as free as the drug addict who is WELL free to take rugs. Sounds crappy? Yeah, it is crappy, you are "free" to watch porn and to let it ruin your REAL sexual live and pleasure but you're NOT free to stop it one it happens and you WANT it to be so. You're "free" to be rude and nasty to all people who love you, you're free to hurt their feelings and once you go through a major relationship catastrophe, you REALIZE you cannot stop it. I can go on listing all your freedoms which you *can enjoy* but in fact they're just like a chain nailed to your leg and which permit you to go in a perimeter of 2 yards. If you 'd want to set free Satan just pulls the chain and throws you down in the mud to let you know who is the master!

Sorry for using rude examples but this ISN'T the "freedom" you want, right? Satan want you to think God is violent and enslaving you -- only to be able to enslave you himself. Believe it or not this is the truth. Try to overcome a BAD habit you know is bad and want it gone and you'll feel the chain pulled!

The real fearsome truth. Think about it next time you come up to the words of Jesus "You'll know the Truth and the Truth will set you free". Free in means of FREE!

redneck... er I mean rednab: You are truly scary. People like you are why I'm scared of you right wing religious freaks, If I believed in god, Id be thanking him every day that nutjobs like you don't yet have the theocracy they desire.



22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Do you understand how crazy that sounds; you just continue to change around your interpretation until you find something that suits you. You said orb in your post but it doesn’t matter keep on blabbing your dogma for you are brainwashed and in need of deprogramming. To me you sound no different then a scientologist nut job.

You said:” Theocracy does not work because humans are fallible and make mistakes. True Christians are not the least bit interested in a theocracy. True Christians are awaiting a monarchy and our coming King.”

What do you think a theocracy is? When the church runs the state it is the same thing.

You also try to change American history to suit your religious beliefs.


“Forced worship stinks in God’s nostrils,” thundered the dissenter Roger Williams as he was banished from Massachusetts for denying Puritan authority over his conscience. Baptists there were a “pitiful negligible minority” but they were agitators for freedom and therefore denounced as “incendiaries of the commonwealth” for holding to their belief in that great democracy of faith—the priesthood of all believers. For refusing to pay tribute to the state religion they were fined, flogged, and exiled. In l651 the Baptist Obadiah Holmes was given 30 stripes with a three-corded whip after he violated the law and took forbidden communion with another Baptist in Lynn, Massachusetts. His friends offered to pay his fine for his release but he refused. They offered him strong drink to anesthetize the pain of the flogging. Again he refused. It is the love of liberty, he said, “that must free the soul.”
Such revolutionary ideas made the new nation with its Constitution and Bill of Rights “a haven for the cause of conscience.” No longer could magistrates order citizens to support churches they did not attend and recite creeds that they did not believe. No longer would “the loathsome combination of church and state”—as Thomas Jefferson described it—be the settled order. Unlike the Old World that had been wracked with religious wars and persecution, the government of America would take no sides in the religious free-for-all that liberty would make possible and politics would make inevitable. The First Amendment neither inculcates religion nor inoculates against it. Americans could be loyal to the Constitution without being hostile to God, or they could pay no heed to God without fear of being mugged by an official God Squad. It has been a remarkable arrangement that guaranteed “soul freedom.”

from
http://www.theocracywatch.org/new_bill_moyers_t...
click link to read more.

Loki, trying to find everything in Genesis won’t do you much good. First off here is the answer that you can’t seem to find.

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
There you have it, plain to see in black and white…unless you don’t think that a circle is an orb or a sphere.

Your rant about theocracy is just plain nuts. I’ll grant you that born-again Christians are awaiting something other than a democracy, but is has nothing to do with America. Just like most Americans educated in the public school system, you actually believe that America’s founding fathers placed a separation between Church and state. First off, that is nowhere in the Constitution. It is found only in one line of one letter of personal correspondence from a founding father. Almost every signer of the constitution was a devoted Christian. And their experience with Europe made it clear to them that they did not want the government telling them what denomination they had to be. For over 150 years, the Supreme Court of the United States upheld decision that stated that our form of government and Christian principles were tied together and could not be separated.

You think that Christians are trying to take over America, but in reality it is just the opposite. It is the left-wing God-haters that are destroying this country. If Christians are trying to do all these dastardly deeds, then why was bible reading and prayer thrown out of school? Why was abortion (genocide) legalized? Why are Christian students not allowed to practice their faith in public schools but Muslims and others can? Does this sound like Christians are trying to do something evil. Looks to me like Christians are on the losing end of a fight. The real story is that the pagan left packed the courts with lunatic left wing liberals during the 1950s & 1960s. They have declared open war on Christianity in all its forms. They believe that a person’s Christian faith should be relegated to between the four walls of their church or their home, never to be brought out in public. They even think that if you are a Christian that you are not suitable to be in politics or be a judge. You think the religious right is a problem for democracy then you have not watched the news over the last many years. I have watched as the American people voted on proposition after proposition only to have them struck down by left wing judges. Can you say California!! A democracy is all about the rule of the people…..not the rule of the judges. As a matter of fact, left wing God-haters don’t believe in democracy at all. They believe in ramming garbage through the court system that they know the American people will never vote for. The God-haters would rather have a theocracy of federal judges than let “We the people” decide. Lets face it, by today’s standards, Jefferson, Madison and Jay would be considered right-wing religious fanatics and dangerous to America.

Theocracy does not work because humans are fallible and make mistakes. True Christians are not the least bit interested in a theocracy. True Christians are awaiting a monarchy and our coming King.

As for the mathematical equations, here it is ….hope you enjoy.

The Book of Daniel is actually one of the most authenticated books of the Old Testament, historically and archaeologically, but this is a convenient shortcut for our purposes here. It is critical to realize that the Book of Daniel existed in documented form almost three centuries before Christ was born. Daniel, originally deported as a teenager (now near the end of the Babylonian captivity), was reading in the Book of Jeremiah. He understood that the seventy years of servitude were almost over and he began to pray for his people.
The Angel Gabriel interrupted Daniel's prayer and gave him a four-verse prophecy that is unquestionably the most remarkable passage in the entire Bible: Daniel 9:24-27.
These four verses include the following segments:
9:24 The Scope of the Entire Prophecy;
9:25 The 69 Weeks;
9:26 An Interval between the 69th and 70th Week;
9:27 The 70th Week.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy Place .
Daniel 9:24

The idiom of a "week" of years was common in Israel as a "sabbath for the land," in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year. It was their failure to obey these laws that led to God sending them into captivity under the Babylonians. Note that the focus of this passage is upon "thy people and upon thy holy city," that is, upon Israel and Jerusalem. (It is not directed to the Church.) The scope of this prophecy includes a broad list of things which clearly have yet to be completed.
A very specific prediction occurs in verse 25:
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:25
This includes a mathematical prophecy. The Jewish (and Babylonian) calendars used a 360-day year; 69 weeks of 360-day years totals 173,880 days. In effect, Gabriel told Daniel that the interval between the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem until the presentation of the Messiah as King would be 173,880 days. The "Messiah the Prince" in the King James translation is actually the Meshiach Nagid, "The Messiah the King." (Nagid is first used of King Saul.)
The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C. (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.) During the ministry of Jesus Christ there were several occasions in which the people attempted to promote Him as king, but He carefully avoided it: "Mine hour is not yet come".
Then, one day, He meticulously arranges it. On this particular day he rode into the city of Jerusalem riding on a donkey, deliberately fulfilling a prophecy by Zechariah that the Messiah would present Himself as king in just that way:
Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Zechariah 9:9
Whenever we might easily miss the significance of what was going on, the Pharisees come to our rescue. They felt that the overzealous crowd was blaspheming, proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah the King. However, Jesus endorsed it!
I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Luke 19:40
This is the only occasion that Jesus presented Himself as King. It occurred on April 6, 32 A.D.
If you examine the period between March 14, 445 B.C. and April 6, 32 A.D., and correct for leap years, we discover that it is 173,880 days exactly, to the very day! How could Daniel have known this in advance? How could anyone have contrived to have this detailed prediction documented over three centuries in advance? But there's more.
There appears to be a gap between the 69th week (verse 25) and the 70th week (verse 27):
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:26
The sixty-two "weeks" follow the initial seven, so verse 26 deals with events after 69th week, but before the 70th. These events include the Messiah being killed and the city and sanctuary being destroyed. As Jesus approached the city on the donkey, He also predicted the destruction of Jerusalem:
For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luke 19:43-44

Loki, once again I see you can’t differentiate between what people do and what the Bible actually says. I know there is a long history of garbage that follows all organized religion. After all, religion is man’s attempt to get to God, while Christ came so God could get to man. They are completely opposite ideas. For you good buddy, no amount of evidence is going to make a dent in your armor. Jesus could appear in your front yard sitting on the Ark of the Covenant and you would scoff. There’s only one way to find out for sure. Take that last breath and pray your right. Its been fun jousting with you, gotta get back to the real world.

To Rednab:
First off, I’d like to say, that imo you are way out there on most of your ideas. I’m wondering what bible that you read or if you read it at all. Also, I’d like you to know that I was also in the USN and traveled to many country’s and I agree that the good old USA is a great place to live.
During my travels I visited the Persian Gulf area, Iran, Iraq, Bahrain in particular. I observed the very frightening power or a theocracy first hand. It made me very happy to be a citizen of the good old USA where we have that most important thing, THE DIVISION OF CHURCH AND STATE! Thank the founding fathers. You might say what’s THEOCRACY got to do with us. Well unless you have been living on another planet you may have noticed that the fundamentalist Christian right has in the past two decades attempted to take over America’s great political parties. The country is not yet a theocracy but the Republican Party is. And they are driving American politics, using God as a battering ram on almost every issue: crime and punishment, foreign policy, Bush thinks he takes his orders from Jesus Christ! More likely he suffers from schizophrenia! Today’s hard right seeks total dominion. It’s packing the courts and rigging the rules. The target is not the Democrats but democracy itself. It’s goal is THEOCRACY! A Church-State. Why is this bad? Lets see, you ever heard of the Taliban! Or how about George Orwell’s 1984, but replace Big Brother with men who think they know the will of GOD and will totally dominate every aspect of your life and mind. Every Free Thinking Person convicted of thought crime if they do not fallow the exact dogma of the Godhead. V for Vendetta was a recant movie that depicts what a Theocracy would be like in Britain or may already be becoming in the United States. We talked about Galileo and how the inquisitors locked him away until the day he died just because he proved by scientific methods that the earth was not the center of the universe.
And by the way, Rednab, that is precisely what is taught by the bible. I don’t know where you got that “orb” BS! I have read Genesis and I didn’t see anything about any “orb” Are you just making that junk up? LOL or did you get it out of the wacko fundamentalist Christian right hand book! I’m now wondering if you read the Old Testament at all! And your attack on Darwin is preposterous! Darwin’s theory’s are based on, and backed by scientific facts, unlike your biblical prophecy junk that you seem to have pulled out of thin air. I prophesize that ill go into that in just a few moments. Rednab also stated “The newest field of scientific study that is making evolution obsolete is information sciences. The computer age has brought us a new field of study that is breaking down old barriers and crushing old concepts, with evolution being at the front of the line. Darwin did not have the advantage of computers, and modern technology has placed his theory on the trash bin of history: WHAT A LOAD OF JUNK!!! DUDE LEAVES THE CRACK PIPE ALONE! If anything Darwin has been proven more correct with each new discovery! Where do you get this stuff? Rednab, You also said, “The Bible also stated that the nation would be brought back from the dead and gave a mathematical equation for the exact date” where did you get that crap? Mathematical equation!!! Also out of the Waco fundamentalist handbook? It wasn’t in the bible that I read! “ Here’s a little food for thought:
the temple was pillaged many times during the course of its history
1. by king Shishak of Egypt, c.925 BCE (1 Kings 14:25, 26);
2. by king Asa of Judah, c.900 BCE in order to persuade Ben-Hadad I of Damascus to come to his aid against Baasha of Israel (1 Kings 15:9-24);
3. by king Jehoash of Judah, c. 825 BCE, in order to pay Hazael of Damascus, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 12:17-18);
4. by king Joash of Israel, c.790 BCE (2 Kings 14:14);
5. by king Ahaz of Judah, 734 BCE, to persuade Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria to come to his aid against Pekah of Israel and Rezin II of Damascus (2 Kings 16:8, 17, 18);
6. by king Hezekiah of Judah, 701 BCE, to pay king Sennacherib of Assyria, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 18:15, 16). The Bible also stated that the nation would be brought back from the dead and gave a mathematical equation for the exact date
7. by king Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon who pillaged it twice- once in 597 BCE, and again in 586 BCE, after which he destroyed it (2 Kings 24:13; 2 Chr. 36:7). He burned the temple, and carried all its treasures with him to Babylon (2 Kings 25:9-17; 2 Chr. 36:19; Isaiah 64:11).
These sacred vessels were, at the end of the Babylonian Captivity, restored to the Jews by Cyrus in 538 BCE (Ezra 1:7-11).

Well, Ya really think it was hard to predict that the temple was going to be destroyed? AGAIN! DOH! A blind mans one-eyed Seeing Eye dog could have seen that one coming!! You retard! LOL! Save that junk for your next palm reading season.
Your final argument states that I need to fallow your belief system in order to have any morality or sense of worth. Hogwash! I don’t have to fear your religious dogma to know the difference between right and wrong. I lead a moral life because I feel it’s the right thing to do. Not because I’m scared of what someone’s idea of a god will do to me if I don’t. I don’t believe in any gods and I’m not out there like “animals who can kill, steal, and destroy anything on anyone” The only people that I see doing that are wack job religious nuts. 911 ring a bell. And don’t try to say that Christians would never do such a thing, crusades! Does that ring a bell, The Inquisition? More recently ethnic cleansing!
Currently, the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands, is trying indicted war criminals in the Bosnia-Herzegovina war. During this conflict an estimated 20,000 women endured sexual assaults in the form of torture and rape. ^1 Although these atrocities were committed on all sides of the warring factions, by far the greatest number of assaults were committed by the Serbs against Muslim women, though Catholic Croats were targeted as well. While in past conflicts rape was sometimes considered an inevitable byproduct of war, and thus largely ignored when it came to punishing the perpetrators, the Bosnian conflict brought the practice of rape with genocidal intent to a new level, causing an outcry among the international community. Evidence suggests that these violations were not random acts carried out by a few dissident soldiers. Rather, this was an assault against the female gender, violating her body and its reproductive capabilities as a "weapon of war." Serbian political and military leaders systematically planned and strategically executed this policy of ethnic cleansing or genocide with the support of the Serbian and Bosnian Serb armies and paramilitary groups to create a "Greater Serbia": a religiously, culturally, and linguistically homogenous Serbian nation. THIS IS YOUR RELIGON AT WORK! THESE WERE CHRISTIANS KILLING AND RAPING IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD!

Loki, your observations are mostly correct in that the Christian Church has typically been hostile to science. I don’t think anyone is arguing that. At the time of Galileo, just about everyone was just plain ignorant. The medieval church guaranteed that most people could not read, and science and technology had taken large steps backwards. The church was being prostituted to gain power and wealth and did everything they could to try and stop anyone who had anything to say that did not fit into their little box. But holding the actions of the ancient Catholic Church for a basis to hate religious faith is a bit out there.

Take math for example. People screw up their tax returns, can’t make change right at McDonalds, and use funny math to cook the books and steal money from their shareholders, and there is every funnier math in Washington DC. Does this mean that people who believe in math are sheeple? Does that make math teachers horrible people?, and does that make math wrong? Does 2 + 2 still equal 4?

As I had said earlier, regardless of what PEOPLE have done, it does not invalidate the message or the truth. People screw up math that does not invalidate math; it just means that the people that made the mistakes were just that, mistaken.

People believe a lot of things that they cannot see. I believe in gravity though I can’t see it. I believe in a cool breeze, though I have never seen one. What I do get to see is the results from these things. and base my belief by experiencing those results. True Christianity is not different. The results of make a decision for Christ is a changed life. In the 13 years as a believer, I have not only seen my life change, but I have seen hundreds of others changed. I have seen bad life situations turn completely around, I have seen just the opposite of what you believe Loki, I have seen people who were imprisoned by drugs, alcohol, gangs, abusive lifestyles and other terrible situations have their life turned completely around because they made a decision for Christ and were set FREE! I guess it is a matter of perspective. A lot of people think being able to smoke as freedom; others see it as being enslaved to tobacco.

Ah Evolution….almost hate to go there. Glad to see you are willing to admit that evolution is a theory. It is indeed a theory based on another theory that is taught as FACT in most colleges. I asked a professor one time what the theory of evolution was based on and I was told that it was based on the geological scale. I then asked what the geological scale was based on, since there is nowhere in the world a person can go and see this geological scale, and was told that it was based on evolution. This is called circular reasoning. This is not science, this is desperation. In this day and age, I think it is silly to believe in this defunct theory. It is funny how almost all branches of science accept the basics of scientific thought except these evolutionary biologists. A great example of this is the laws of thermodynamics. These laws are fully accepted by physics, quantum physics, cosmology, and so on. But for evolutionary biologist, the laws of thermodynamics are in direct opposition to their theory, thus they discard them specifically the second law of thermodynamics, which states that energy systems increase their entropy. In laymen’s terms, you cannot go from disorder to order, it only works in the opposite direction.

The newest field of scientific study that is making evolution obsolete is information sciences. The computer age has brought us a new field of study that is breaking down old barriers and crushing old concepts, with evolution being at the front of the line. Darwin did not have the advantage of computers, and modern technology has placed his theory on the trash bin of history.

As for the Biblical record; the Bible clearly states that the earth is an orb (round), and that it travels on a circuit with the stars. The bible mentions dinosaurs in several places, and also mentions the currents of the seas. There are dozens of things that are stated in the Bible that have only recently been discovered in the last several hundred years. The Bible is not ignorant of these things, only the people who do not read it or understand it.

It sounds as if Loki is upset with the medieval church. Tough to help you with that one, but your thought process is a little off on your statement that my belief system is holding back the world. In actuality, the Christian belief system is probably the only thing in this world holding it together. I was on an aircraft carrier for four years back in the 1990’s and had a chance to visit many areas of the world, and I can tell you first hand that there is no better place to be on planet earth than a country with a strong Christian heritage. And since I am a firm believer in that old phrase “you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears,” seeing how others live lets you know about their belief system. In almost every case, a country’s prosperity and how their people live is directly related to their form of religion and their form of government. If you go to a country that is mostly Spanish Catholic, you will find massive corruption, from the taxi driver on the street to the country’s president. These people will always be poor, except for a ruling class of elite rich people. Go to an Islamic country and you will see an oppressed people prone toward violence. Once again the people will be poor even though the country maybe rich. Go to a non-religious country like the old Soviet Union, and you will see despair on a scale unrivaled. In a non-religious country, there is nothing to hold back the passions or evils in men’s hearts and they enslave the masses. Then you take a look at the Judeo-Christian-Protestant West. Here you see just the opposite. You see countries where people live free and prosper. You see lands of opportunity and freedom. America is the most religious Christian country in the world, and I don’t see folks lining up to leave for China.

And lastly, Loki seems to have a difficult time with Biblical prophecy. For any non-Christian, this is a difficult thing because there is no argument against it. Biblical prophecy is more factual than anything out there. Loki seems to think that the Bible deals in vague prophecies, which is entirely untrue. Biblical prophecies are in most cases very localized and exact so as to not be missed.

Examples: Biblical prophecies that the Israelites would be scattered to the nations. Happened in AD 70 when the Roman legions sacked Jerusalem and tore down the temple. Most of the population that was not killed was sent into exile outside the nation. The Bible also stated that the nation would be brought back from the dead and gave a mathematical equation for the exact date it would happen. That exact date was May of 1948. The day that the Israeli flag was raised over modern day Israel.

Jesus prophecy that not one stone would be left standing upon another when speaking of the Temple in Jerusalem. Also fulfilled in AD 70. The Roman legions burned the temple, which melted the gold implements inside. The Roman general ordered that the temple be taken apart stone by stone to recover the gold. Do these sound like vague prophecies to you? Biblical prophecies are given in exact detail, and are always found to be 100% accurate. There is no heresy that the Bible has not expected and dealt with.

I think the bottom line here is that people have only two choices, they either believe in the God of random chance or a creator God. There is no third option. In a world believing in the God of random chance, there are no absolutes. There is no reason for being. You are just a cosmic accident with no importance, no past and certainly no future. There is no right or wrong. We are just animals who can kill, steal, and destroy anything or anyone we want because there is no justice or retribution. Humans are no more important or valuable than a cockroach or ant. If you worship the God of random chance, then this is your type of world and your welcome to it, just don’t include me in it.
I will choose to believe in the creator God. Life without him makes no sense.

A little more about Galileo to hamer the point home.
The Catholic Church, which was very powerful and influential in Galileo's day, strongly supported the theory of a geocentric, or Earth-centered, Universe. After Galileo began publishing papers about his astronomy discoveries and his belief in a heliocentric, or Sun-centered, Universe, he was called to Rome to answer charges brought against him by the Inquisition (the legal body of the Catholic Church). Early in 1616, Galileo was accused of being a heretic, a person who opposed Church teachings. Heresy was a crime for which people were sometimes sentenced to death. Galileo was cleared of charges of heresy, but was told that he should no longer publicly state his belief that Earth moved around the Sun. Galileo continued his study of astronomy and became more and more convinced that all planets revolved around the Sun. In 1632, he published a book that stated, among other things, that the heliocentric theory of Copernicus was correct. Galileo was once again called before the Inquisition and this time was found guilty of heresy. Galileo was sentenced to life imprisonment in 1633. Because of his age and poor health, he was allowed to serve his imprisonment under house arrest. Galileo died on January 8, 1642.

LOKI

To Rednab:
“The sheep hear the shepherds voice and know him”
So you’re a sheep, wonderful, baahhh baahhh!
Your Tyrannical god will have you grovel before him both in life and after death, that’s what it is to be a servant or to use a harsher word, slave. This is written in the scriptures you so love! Good luck with that!
Your attack on and oversimplification of Darwin’s theory of evolution is typical. But fairs fair, I am after all attacking your belief system. But I have my reasons and I will share them later in this post.
As to Darwin’s theory of evolution, Notice the word THEORY, what does this mean? I will define this for you. A theory is a hypothesis. Hypothesis are used in non-technical contests to mean an untested idea or opinion. A Theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: The theory of relativity, A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth.
And at least Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is based on science not by some ancient text written in a dark age by men that thought the earth was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe!
I find it interesting that you brought up Galileo let’s talk about him.
Galileo Galilei pioneered the use of quantitative experiments whose results could be analyzed with mathematical precision. That’s right, The Scientific method! Science is not a religon, It’s just a way of trying to find the truth! And what happened to Galileo for seeking the truth? In 1610, Galileo published an account of his telescopic observations of the moons of Jupiter, using this observation to argue in favor of the sun-centered, Copernican theory of the universe against the dominant earth-centered Ptolemaic and Aristotelian theories. The next year Galileo visited Rome in order to demonstrate his telescope to the influential philosophers and mathematicians of the Jesuit Collegio Romano, and to let them see with their own eyes the reality of the four moons of Jupiter. In 1614, from the pulpit of Santa Maria Novella, Father Tommaso Caccini (1574–1648) denounced Galileo's opinions on the motion of the Earth, judging them dangerous and close to heresy. Galileo went to Rome to defend himself against these accusations, but, in 1616, Cardinal Roberto Bellarmino personally handed Galileo an admonition enjoining him neither to advocate nor teach Copernican astronomy. Once again Religon stamps its foot on the neck of science.
Although he tried to remain loyal to the Catholic Church, Galileo's adherence to experimental results, and their most honest interpretation, led to his rejection of blind allegiance to authority, both philosophical and religious, in matters of science. In broader terms, this helped separate science from both philosophy and religion, a major development in human thought.
So there are my reasons for attacking your belief system. To me your belief system is holding back the entire human race! Good luck bringing us all back to another dark age.
One last thing. Your assertion that biblical prophecies are accurate is just silly! For example, I prophesize that their will be an earthquake in the San Francisco but I don’t say when. Sooner are later, if given long enough, I will have been proven right! That doesn’t make me a prophet! That whole argument is just silly.
LOKI

Such anger from the God-haters…..Let me interject, since I have been both an ardent heathen and now a blood bought believer in Jesus. I’ll address several issues brought up by the unbelieving crowd.

First let me say that I rarely attend church, and when I have gone regularly, I am fondly known as “the heretic.” My faith comes from the Bible, not some church or religious leader. I think the organized church has stood in the way of and has damaged the Christian faith. The Catholic Church and most denominations are an embarrassment. They are ruled by tradition and pagan roots and not by God. I have a very hard time reconciling what I see in organized Christianity and the Bible. Yet this does not make the Bible wrong and it does not make the truth any different.

First and foremost I’ll address the unbelievers disbelief in the Bible itself. They view it as a book of myths, legends and quaint fairy-tales, but in reality, it is anything but that. The Bible is 66 books written by 40 writers over thousands of years, yet it is an integrated message system that was authored outside the domain of time and space. Loki stated that he read the Bible, but it is obvious that he did not understand what he read, as reading and understanding are two different things. The Bible was written as a coded message system, which the author expected hostile jamming of the message. For example: modern military coding is spread out over a large bandwidth and repeated many times. This is done so that if there is hostile jamming or communication problems, what they are trying to say is not lost. The Bible is written the same way. The message of the Bible is written many ways over the whole of the Scriptures. If you were to tear a page out of the Bible, you would not lose any of the message, only a little clarity.

I am often asked if I take the Bible literally, and my answer is; I take the Bible seriously. “IF” there was a creator God, and he wanted to get a message to his creation, how would he be able to authenticate this message? This God would have to be outside the dimensions of time and space, which means outside of the creation, just like the painter is outside the canvas and paint. Would this God stick his head through the clouds and yell “BOO….I’m God and your not!”? Most likely not. One way God would authenticate his message is being able to tell history in advance, since he is outside time itself. You want proof that the Bible is a message from God? It is proven in what is commonly known as Biblical prophecy. The Bible is the only “Holy Book” in the world that dares to prophesize. And as one poster has put it, it has prophesized with 100% accuracy. A great example of this is the Biblical prophecy that the Israelites would be taken into captivity by Babylon for 70 years, and that a king named Cyrus would release them. This was written 150 years before Israel was taken into captivity to Babylon. When you read the Book of Daniel, the King of the Media-Persian Empire moves against Babylon and takes the city without a fight. When the king enters the city, he is greeted by Daniel who shows him the prophecy. And can you guess what this king’s name is……Cyrus. It can be found in any encyclopedia out there. No made-up myth or legend.

The Bible has thousands of prophecies in it, many already fulfilled, many are currently being fulfilled in our lifetime and on T.V. and many more are still to come.

Some people also seem to have a problem with the Gospels in the New Testament, thinking the contradict each other, but this is not so. I actually work in the law enforcement field, and I can tell you first hand that if you interview four witnesses to a crime or event, you will get four different stories. That doesn’t mean that you have four liars, it just means you have four different perspectives. Each of the New Testament writers wrote their gospel from a different perspective. Matthew wrote his gospel as a Jew writing to Jews. Mark’s gospel was written from the perspective of Jesus being a suffering servant. Luke, who was a doctor, wrote of Jesus’ humanity, and John, who was a mystic, wrote of Jesus’ divinity. The accounts do not contradict one another. Like a good police report, they are eyewitness accounts that when taken in total, tell a grand story. And if you ever get a chance to go to Rome, you will find out that Roman historians lean heavily on the New Testament for dating purposes.

For you critics of the Bible, if you are intellectually honest, then you have to fall back on what is called “Aristotle’s Dictum”. Aristotle’s Dictum is what is used in higher criticism of ancient manuscripts. Aristotle wrote “Unless the author of the manuscript disqualifies himself by verifiable errors, then the benefit of the doubt must be given to the author.” This philosophy goes for all ancient manuscripts, and this includes the Bible. You can’t have a separate standard for it. The Bible is 100% accurate and trustworthy.

The next big question is, was this Jesus guy really who they say he was. The answer to this question can be seen in the math. I am a firm believer that numbers do not lie (except in some sporting events). The Hebrew Scriptures had been translated into Greek 300 years before the time period described in the New Testament. The Jewish prophecies that described their coming messiah number in the hundreds. What are the odds that one man could fulfill all these prophecies? The scientist that the God-haters love so much once stated that anything over 1 to the 50th power was considered absurd. That would be a 1 with 50 zeroes behind it. To get a clear picture of that, these same scientist claim that the world is about 400 billion years old. That is approximately 1 to the 17th power seconds. A 1 with 17 zeroes behind it. If you took just 12 of the Old Testament major prophecies about the messiah, and calculated the odds of them being fulfilled by a single person, it comes in at about 1 to the 80th power! And that is just 12 of the hundreds of prophecies.

The Jewish Scriptures stated that the Messiah would be God in the flesh, a member of the family line of David. Psalms 22, written at the time of David, is written from the perspective of someone being crucified. Crucifixion was invented by the Persians 800 years after the Psalm was written, and was later perfected by the Romans.

It’s even funny that the Jews of Jesus day did not believe 100% in their scriptures. In the Old Testament, when Abraham is giving out his blessing before he dies, he tells Judah “the scepter shall not pass until Shiloh comes.” The scepter means capital punishment, and Shiloh means the Messiah. At one point, the Roman procurator in Jerusalem revoked the Sanhedrin’s right to capital punishment. It was reported by a Roman historian that in Jerusalem, the Pharisee and Sadducees had put on sackcloth and covered themselves in ashes and wandered around the city bemoaning that the scepter had passed from them yet the messiah had not come and that there venerable Torah had failed them. Little did they know that several miles down the road in a tiny town called Nazareth, there was a young carpenter’s son who indeed was Shiloh.

For Loki and the others, I would have to agree that there are many brainwashed, brain-dead Christians out there. In a survey I recently read about, it stated that between 80-90% of the Christians who go to church regularly are Biblically illiterate. Many people consider themselves Christian because they were born Catholic or because they sit in the pew. I always say, “Just because you sit in the hen house doesn’t make you a rooster.” But regardless of that, it does not make the Bible any less true and it does not make Jesus any less the Messiah.

One issue I do have with the God-haters perspective is pointing to science as the be-all end-all. Science is not what it once was and is pretty unreliable at best. In the time of Newton and Galileo, science was conducted correctly. They took A & B and came out with C. C was whatever C was. Modern scientist think they already know what C is and they manipulate A & B in order to get the results they want. In early science , the result was the result, but in modern science, if they don’t like the result, they just continue to create a new hypothesis and disregard the earlier result. And of course early science left room for a creator God in the equation. Modern scientists have decided that is not an option no matter what the data shows. They just created a new model and move on.

The theory of origins can never be proven one way or the other. In order for it to be scientifically proven, it has to meet the scientific criteria of being able to be observed and to be repeatable. Unless they can go back to the future, it will always be a faith issue. You either have to believe in “from goo through the zoo to you”, or that “Darth Vader came to earth and sprinkled little microbes on it”, or that there was a creator to all the design that is seen in the universe. I’ll be betting on that last one.


For those of you who seem to be hurt by some church experience or by religious crazy parents, I am very sorry that it has happened to you. I hear that occasionally and it saddens me. For the ones who say they read the Bible and obviously didn’t get anything out of it, try again, this time with an open heart, or at least without preconceived ideas. Jesus stated, “The sheep hear the shepherds voice and know him.” If you come at the Bible with anger, hatred, or with the intent of disproving his existence, you will get nothing from it because you do not know his voice and do not seek him. I hope to see you all on the other side cause its gonna kick ass!!

A gilded cage , is a cage none the less.

break the chains of your imprisoned mind.

David Gonzales:
I’ve read the Bible, both old and New Testament before coming to and decision on the matter. I find that many of the people that are followers have not. If they had actually read it from cover to cover and analyzed its quite insane continents without the force of will of church or congregation to accept that dogma without question, they might come to a different conclusion. But that is the way of the church; they really don’t want you to look to closely. It’s the weak minded that they love most.
But about your comment that, if your wrong you just die like everyone else, and if I’m wrong I go to hell, well all I can say is that I’d sooner burn in hell with a free thinking mind then serve in heaven as a servant / slave of the god of the old testament that is the father of your beloved Christ. A god that is cruel and vindictive jealous and angry. A god that demands your worship forever and ever! It’s all there in the Old Testament, read it for yourself. You want to go to that heaven when you die? So you can be enslaved in mind and spirit, never allowed to think for yourself, ever! Never have the joy of figuring out anything for yourself, the possibility of understand the true nature of the universe denied you because reality is dictated to you by your jealous god! Good luck with that.
Anyway you are already enslaved in that manner, you don’t even have to wait till you die. All your decisions about reality have all ready been made for you by the strict dogma written centuries ago buy men that would make gods. You think your god was the first god people made up? LOL Anyways. As for me, I’m free, and always will be, come heaven or hell, dust or dirt.

LOKI

So,
I haven't read what all of you are writing and I really don't care to. What I know in my heart as the truth is this. Christ was and is real. He was a man that was killed for following what he knew to be true. He had faith in love, in goodness and in being passive. Christ, just like all of us are the children of god. God is love, and love is the ultimate form of energy.

Love creates, Evil destroys. Simple.

About the bible. The bible was maintained by man and man corrupts. How can any of you bible lovers know if the bible is being true to christ, or being true to someone who manipulated it to gain control and power. Organized religion... government... one in the same...

be good to each other, love each other, stop being so frail...

If we do good in this life then we'll continue on in a good way after we die. If we do bad, we'll vanish into nothingness.

Simple right?

Kevin says he will point his fist to the Lord Jesus Christ. In the mean time a 12 foot angel will drop his lost soul into Hell for eternity. You sound like you are already lost and your heart is hardened already. Man I hope not, but if that is the case, I am glad I am not in your shoes. It sounds like Satan has your soul!!!

Try me Loki!

We all know the predictions of Nostrodomus were not 100% correct because we have seen his predictions fail. But if you read the bible and the things it has predicted, it has been 100% correct. Loki if you are right and I am wrong, I have not lost anything, I would have lived a life to the best of my ability and would end up worm food like everyone else. But if I am right and you are wrong, your last breath on earth will soon follow you first breath in Hell and you can never leave that place of torment.

Loki don't put up an argument until you have picked up the bible and know what you are talking about first of all. You can write fancy words and come across and intelligent, but your argument is weak unless you know what you are talking about. So again Loki, try me!

WOW talk about brainwashed indoctrination! You sound like a brainwashed kid from a madrassa. Or whatever the Christian equivalent is. From this observer, you appear to be truly insane. To me you are no different then a scientology lunatics. Its really too bad that your minds are to feeble to question the insanity of the belief system that was probably forced upon you in childhood, And worse if you were indoctrinated as an adult, then there is no excuse for your weakness of mind, your inability to think for yourself, and your easy coercion into what is buy any sane interpolation, just another cult.

Jeramy: Quoting your stupid dogma to me, someone that can actually think for himself is less then useless. I base my decisions about reality on scientific evidence, not dogma and superstitious beliefs passed on from religious quackeries of past parasites that pray on the weak minded. You utter ability to be lead without question and any scientific method or critical thinking is appalling. It’s quite clear that your to scared, cowering over what may happen to you if you don’t believe this dogma, that you are paralyzed from actually using your brain, its pathetic! Just another waist of a human brain imo.

David Gonzales, saying the bible has always been 100% correct in all its predictions, is like saying that Nostrodomus was 100% correct in his. You must be stoned on some good drugs to believe that! Next thing you know you will believe in what a palm reader tells you about the future. Or a horoscope. That stuff is written so vaguely, ambiguously, that it could mean anything. Get real! Try using the scientific method to come to a conclusion. I pity you, as I pity a human who has had a lobotomy.

Please people , wake up. Let go of your fear and try using your brain.

LOKI